Go figure
I think the term all out mile is being misused. Depending on where a person is in their training, running mile pace does not necessariily equate to running an all out mile. As for the virtues of running 1600's at mile pace (whatever that means to an individual) there are those who advocate them, and those who do not. And yes, the speed or ability at which one runs, or can run them matters.
I think the term all out mile is being misused. Depending on where a person is in their training, running mile pace does not necessariily equate to running an all out mile.
As for the virtues of running 1600's at mile pace (whatever that means to an individual) there are those who advocate them, and those who do not. And yes, the speed or ability at which one runs, or can run them matters.
Trying to find some more hay to restock the barn
Maybe you could clarify, LRB (or SIAR, if that's how you described the workout initially) what you mean by 'mile pace' if not mile race pace? I think the terminology most of us are used to is that '5K pace' refers to your all-out 5K pace; marathon pace refers to your all-out marathon pace, etc.
I don't think there's anything wrong with running a fast 1600 in training, but I think the disagreement is on what pace you should be running the 1600m at.
Maybe you could clarify, LRB (or SIAR, if that's how you described the workout initially) what you mean by 'mile pace' if not mile race pace? I think the terminology most of us are used to is that '5K pace' refers to your all-out 5K pace; marathon pace refers to your all-out marathon pace, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with running a fast 1600 in training, but I think the disagreement is on what pace you should be running the 1600m at.
Are we there, yet?
It's definitely being misused if you aren't equating mile race pace to an all out mile - unless you're of the persuasion that race pace does not mean as fast as you can run for that distance. My fastest mile this year in a race is 7:54. That's my mile race pace, not 8:15 or 8:30 or 10:00 which is my tempo pace. That workout calls for me to run 2 x 800m in 3:57, 1 x 1600m in 7:54, 2 x 800m in 3:57 and I'm assuming an equal time recovery. That would bring me to a shuffle long before I finished the mile. Actually the times would be a few seconds faster since 1600m is a little short of a mile.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
I do not believe the term all out has a place when the subject is training, and I am unsure why it it was interjected into the conversation.
If your paces are true and you are training under your current ability, nothing about speed work that I have done correlates an all out effort with training. Sure, you will get your head kicked in at times, but that is more a derivative of dead legs, running on empty, lack of sleep, double shift at work, significant other bitchin' about you running all the time etc.
For me, once I have run a pace or time during an event, the next time I run it, it takes a bit less effort. So what was once an all out effort (on the day I set it while racing) ceases to be while training.
My 5k pace is 6:18, my mile time is 5:35. Since the goal of training is to get faster, I would expect to go run either of them and not have it be an all out effort. Indeed, for where I am now, an all out effort would be my 5k goal pace of 6:07, or 5:20 for the mile.
But hey, maybe I am doing it wrong, it would not be the first time. And George has forgotten more about running than I will ever know, so there is that.
For me personally, I don't always use paces that I've actually run to set training. I use equivalencies, guesses based on other races, etc. A good example is my 10K pace. My last 10K in which I PRed was April 2012, an 8:26 pace. Since then I've run a 5-mile race at 7:48 pace and a 15K at 8:12 pace, so I think it's fair to say that my PR is soft. If I trained at 8:26 pace (or at the 8:12 of my unofficial 10K PR), any time my training plan called for '10K pace' it would not be enough of a stimulus-- so I estimate what my current ability is, and train at that.
If my training plan called for a 10K at 10K pace, it would be an all-out time trial, because I wouldn't be using my previous 10K pace, I would be running at my estimate of my current ability.
Marathon pace running during marathon training is another reason it's better to use a reasonable estimate than an actually run pace, since marathon pace can change so much from one marathon to another, especially if they're raced relatively rarely. It's not that you train at goal pace, it's that you train at your current ability, and adjust it over time using race feedback and workout feedback.
Trail Monster
I think we're arguing the wrong points as they apply to me. I don't have a mile race time. I don't even have a good 5k time. What was all out the day I ran 24:27 would probably feel like nothing now if I took a week to taper and recover before a race. Every race I've done in the last year has been on dead legs and heavy mileage with no speed work. I think we are going to find that what ends up coming out of my addition of speed work is going to be beyond what anyone would expect. LRB has faith in me and my abilities. I may have been prone to cynicism and pessimism in the past but I've pushed my body beyond all reasonable limits in the past few months and now I believe that LRB's faith is not misplaced. I guess only time will tell who's right but I believe that these faster than race efforts are still not truly predictive of what's to come in my case.
2013 races:
3/17 Shamrock Marathon
4/20 North Coast 24 Hour
7/27 Burning RIver 100M
8/24 Baker 50M
10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)
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