No more marathons
NBT - did you get any useful information out of this?
Lily - that's 6 quality marathons in 12 months. How do you keep your focus? I'm impressed.
Boston 2014 - a 33 year journey
Lordy, I hope there are tapes.
He's a leaker!
I will answer, yes I'm slow and I run low mileage, rarely going above 40mpw during full training, but I have
had what I consider very successful marathons each time. I have never banked time because I know it
won't work for me. I also think it takes a lot of fortitude to stick to a plan especially when the first 1/2 feels
very slow.
I think the key is knowing what your pace should be for your goal, gearing your training for that pace and
sticking to your plan during the marathon (not withstanding unforseen circumstances) and knowing the course,
your strengths and weaknesses as a runner and adjusting them to the course.
Seems simple, somtimes it is, sometimes it isn't. I think I have been lucky but also I think 10 years of running
1/2 marathons without a GArmin) before trying a full gave me a very realistic perception of my paces and abilities
and I geared my race to those.
I have only run 5 marathons, the first at age 48. Each one went pretty much according to my plan. I crossed the
half within 2 minutes of my planned time on each one and finished within a few minutes of my projection on
each one.
My splits are thus for each marathon.....the first one I ran the split slower on purpose, well because it was the
first and I took it easy becuase it had a 1,800+ gain and I didn't want to drag my ass across the finish line..
Marathon #1 and #3 were the same race one year apart, I ran it faster the second time because I knew the
1,800 elevation gain wouldn't kill me the next time as I has learned from the first time that +11 minutes felt too
slow, so I changed my plan accordingly
+11
+6
+5
+ 3
I improved from my first marathon (4:39) to my 5th (4:20) in 23 months simply thru race day experience and getting
better at honing in on my pacing each time. The ability to get my training paces more in line with my race day paces
during training gave me a time inprovement of almost 20 minutes without additional training miles.
Pretty much agree with everything LTH said, except he is smarter and far more eloquent.
Chief Unicorn Officer
Just speaking from experience, the only time I truly planned to bank some time was the Steamtown Marathon in 2010 (my PR marathon). That's because the first half of the course is significantly downhill. Towards the end of the course, not only are you fighting the expected late-race fatigue, but there are also two uphills. I didn't go crazy banking time or anything though, because I also knew if I was blowing it out of the box going downhill for many miles, my quads would be completely trashed. Like somebody else said, the only scenario I think it may work is when the course condition or course makeup is quite different in the first and second halves.
Mile 5:49 - 5K 19:58 - 10K 43:06 - HM 1:36:54
delicate flower
It's always struck me as a bad idea to try to go out fast just to save up some time for later in the race. That's almost a guaranteed way to fail. Now, I have had fast starts before, but it wasn't because I was trying to bank time. Usually it's because that's how the course is laid out. If the course starts with some downhill, I'm going to take advantage of that and run a faster pace at the start. Otherwise, I go into my races with the strategy of picking a pace I think I can hold for the duration of the race. There have been a couple of races where I picked too aggressive a pace, and that's what caused blow ups.
<3
levitation specialist
NBT - did you get any useful information out of this? Lily - that's 6 quality marathons in 12 months. How do you keep your focus? I'm impressed.
Actually I wasn't really looking for information, more like an explanation. I realize "going out too fast" is a rookie mistake, ones even the most experienced racers have happen occasionally. But I find it curious that sometimes people choose to see this as a real strategy and call it "banking time" instead.
I guess they are just beng optimistic? Or is this a valid strategy?
But then you can never run the exact same run & the same conditions twice, so you honestly don't know if your time was well spent banking or if it would be better spent with even pacing. I know in my training runs, even pacing on the same route gets me a better OA finish time and I feel better at the end.
I wouldn't call this banking time either, but rather a race strategy. You need to run the course and expect the hills, downhills, turns. If you can take advantage of the downhills, then you'll have some to spare on the uphills.
Damaris
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Actually I wasn't really looking for information, more like an explanation. I realize "going out too fast" is a rookie mistake, ones even the most experienced racers have happen occasionally. But I find it curious that sometimes people choose to see this as a real strategy and call it "banking time" instead. I guess they are just beng optimistic? Or is this a valid strategy? But then you can never run the exact same run & the same conditions twice, so you honestly don't know if your time was well spent banking or if it would be better spent with even pacing. I know in my training runs, even pacing on the same route gets me a better OA finish time and I feel better at the end.
To your question "is it a valid strategy?", read Advanced Marathoning", by Pftzinger, page 125. According to him, the answer is yes.
To your question "are they just being optimistic?". My answer is: I hit my goal of a BQ 9 times out of 9 in the space of 2 1/2 years, without ever having a faster second half, or even splits throughout... It wasn't optimism, I was spot on with my finish time in almost each race. And all my race times at all distances are pretty much perfectly aligned in the McMillan equivalency chart.
Personally, I think that recreational runners who run faster second halves in their marathons don't push hard enough... And trying to run a perfectly even marathon is very risky. I think that Pfitz has it just right.
PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013
Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013
18 marathons, 18 BQs since 2010
I have the book, so I know the fade science behind the running a slightly faster first half. That wasn't really what I was referring to though. I apologize for the confusion. I tend to agree with Pfitz, although obviously never running a full yet, haven't experienced it myself yet. Reading about it, it makes sense though.
I think your question was: I guess basically I am asking what the difference is between a bank time vs a bonk time?
To me, there is a difference. If I bank time, finish feeling spent, but strong, and hit my goal time, my banking time strategy definitely worked. In general, for me, that works to about 10 seconds faster per mile the first 10 or 13 miles, then I usually go GMP the next 6 or 8 miles, then I slow down. If I don't walk at all and manage to still run the last few miles in my GA range and I hit my goal time, I figure I did it right. Bonking for me happens if I go faster than 10 seconds over GMP, over too many miles in the beginning. When I did that (on two occasions, actually), I knew at mile 16 that the last 10 miles were going to be rough. In all my other marathons, it was only in the last 2 or 3 miles that I'd start questioning my sanity, not before that.
So it is what I thought the difference probably was, just was looking for comfirmation.
Banking is a small negative split(pre planned)from GP in first half of a race or as terrain dicatates, knowing that your second half you loose time because of body physiology.
Bonking is a larger negative split(unplanned)from GP in the first half of a race, which creates a much slower second half.
Planned vs unplanned. Small pacing difference vs larger pacing difference. That about right?
So it is what I thought the difference probably was, just was looking for comfirmation. Banking is a small negative split(pre planned)from GP in first half of a race or as terrain dicatates, knowing that your second half you loose time because of body physiology. Bonking is a larger negative split(unplanned)from GP in the first half of a race, which creates a much slower second half. Planned vs unplanned. Small pacing difference vs larger pacing difference. That about right?
Yes, that's the way I see it. :-)
It happens to a lot of people at Boston. Fast first half, tons of energy, everyone around you is running a lot faster than the random crowd at your qualifier -- you just PRed the half! Yay!!! Oops.
You're not from 'round here are ya?
Lol! Like!
I sometimes get a little enthusiastic when a certain song comes on my iPod. The next .50 mile reminds me that I shouldn't let a song dictate my pace......suckage! But hey, I PRd the heck outta that previous .50 mile!
Thanks for the confirmation, lily! Sometimes you think you know and then you overthink it and you don't! So when I read something like "good thing I ran so fast to start, or else my time would have sucked!" and I think "really, I thought THAT caused slower times?" so then you start to think which is the chicken and which is the egg. Body science and RL sometimes don't get along well!
Lol! Like! I sometimes get a little enthusiastic when a certain song comes on my iPod. The next .50 mile reminds me that I shouldn't let a song dictate my pace......suckage! But hey, I PRd the heck outta that previous .50 mile! Thanks for the confirmation, lily! Sometimes you think you know and then you overthink it and you don't! So when I read something like "good thing I ran so fast to start, or else my time would have sucked!" and I think "really, I thought THAT caused slower times?" so then you start to think which is the chicken and which is the egg. Body science and RL sometimes don't get along well!
That's why you should put the best songs for last!
Trail Monster
I agree with Lily to an extent. It's not banking time so much as having a margin of error. I tried to allow myself 8 seconds of margin on either side of goal pace per mile for my PR marathon. It worked out really well and I had a 3 minute positive split (fade). Going out 8-10 seconds slower than goal pace and picking it up little by little as I warmed up and felt good was perfect for me. My endurance just wasn't there yet and I faded in the last 3 miles or so.
2013 races:
3/17 Shamrock Marathon
4/20 North Coast 24 Hour
7/27 Burning RIver 100M
8/24 Baker 50M
10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)
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