Beginners and Beyond

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Setting Pace Ranges (Read 311 times)


Trail Monster

    Question on choosing whiuse race to input, e.g. McMillan, for choosing pace ranges for workouts. My times do not 'align' at all currently which I am seeking to remedy by increasing my base.

     

    Current PR's:

    5k - 24:27

    10k - 59:30 (super soft as it was part of a 3-race weekend)

    HM - 2:08 (unofficial, ran on my own)

    FM - 4:33

     

    I have been using the half time trial for pace ranges since it's in the middle of my times, recent, and not soft like the 10k. However, I ran a hilly 5k on NYE and ran 25:41. I thought that might be a good representation of my current ability given my PR was on a pancake flat course. However, the pace ranges from the 25:41 still don't look achievable to me and honestly scare the shit out of me. So do I keep using the half time trial or try to find middle ground or what? I don't have any races that I plan to actually race before Shamrock except maybe a tune up half a month or 6 weeks out if I can find one and by then it will be a little late to adjust training paces. Help please!

    2013 races:

    3/17 Shamrock Marathon

    4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

    7/27 Burning RIver 100M

    8/24 Baker 50M

    10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

     

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    jmctav23


    2/3rds training

      Even using my slightly soft (windy, hilly, and turny course) 10k time, the McMillan training paces are challenging.  I just did my first tempo run in a while trying to nail/get close to the suggested paces and while it seemed outlandish at the beginning, I got down to them and held out for the whole workout.  Felt thoroughly trashed last night after the workout, but this morning am only slightly sore.  It may just be a matter of getting used to running faster than usual but it definitely falls on the hard side of the "comfortably hard" description given for tempo pace.

       

      So all that to say you're not the only one scared of his paces but you may surprise yourself like I did.  Sorry I have no input on which race to use, but the HM time trial is probably soft given the fact that you ran on your own and unless you have super-human will power you probably did not push as hard as you would in a race.


      Bad Ass

        I think the McMillan paces are very aggressive.  I wouldn't be able to achieve them without having an asthma attack.  And I'm only talking about the easy paces.

         

        You and I have similar paces.  I run easy and LR paces at 11mm (in the heat and humidity, so adjusted it's close to 10:30mm), HMP @ 8:45mm-9:15mm, 5K intervals at 7:50ish, MP @ 9:45mm.  Tempos for me are closer to 8:30-8:45mm.  Just to give you an idea.  Much slower than McMillan (especially on the easy part).

        Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

        Blog

        "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."


        Trail Monster

          Jm- thanks but if the TT is soft its not by much. My fastest half was during my 4th marathon and that was 2:11 if I remember correctly. So while I may be able to run a 2:05 or 2:06 I did push myself at race effort. I recently ran a 5k TT on my own and ran 25 minutes flat, only 33 seconds slower than my PR. I'd say I'm pretty good at putting out race effort in training and I know without a doubt that McMillan's paces based on my 5k are not within my reach right now.

          2013 races:

          3/17 Shamrock Marathon

          4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

          7/27 Burning RIver 100M

          8/24 Baker 50M

          10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

           

          My Blog

           

          Brands I Heart:

          FitFluential

          INKnBURN

          Altra Zero Drop


          Trail Monster

            Thanks Damaris! I think you are right that the paces are too aggressive when based on my 5k. I think I will run speed work (200m to 1600m) based on my 5k time but run my workouts (tempos to recovery) based on the half. It seems logical to me to base short, fast runs on a short, fast race but base longer workouts on a longer time trial. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

            2013 races:

            3/17 Shamrock Marathon

            4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

            7/27 Burning RIver 100M

            8/24 Baker 50M

            10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

             

            My Blog

             

            Brands I Heart:

            FitFluential

            INKnBURN

            Altra Zero Drop


            Shakedown Street

              I am going to say toss your unofficial HM pace. I have ran 2 HM, and never touched that pace in a training run of the same distance. I am willing to bet you could run a 1:55 on a good day, maybe better for the HM.

               

              So, My2cents, use middle ground, but don't short yourself. Or, if your feeling good, use that 5K race you just did and try some of those paces. You might shock yourself (or get injured).

              Started-5/12, RWOL refugee,5k-24:23 (1/12/13),10K-55:37(9/15/12),HM-1:52:59(3/24/13)


              Bad Ass

                I do base my speedwork on my 5K times, so it sounds good.  I do the rest of the stuff by HR (tempos, MP, and HMP).

                 

                Thanks Damaris! I think you are right that the paces are too aggressive when based on my 5k. I think I will run speed work (200m to 1600m) based on my 5k time but run my workouts (tempos to recovery) based on the half. It seems logical to me to base short, fast runs on a short, fast race but base longer workouts on a longer time trial. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

                Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                Blog

                "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."


                Muddling through

                  Pace calculations like those for McMillan's calculator are often based on Daniels' VDOT or a similar measurement. To get the proper training ranges the instructions direct that you use your BEST recent time. If that happens to be your 5K, then those are the paces you should be using. The ranges are intended to take into account individual variations as well as variable conditions including how tired you are. If they seem fast that may be because you aren't used to including speedwork regularly in your training, especially VO2Max intervals and repetitions. Of the pace ranges most runners seem to have the most difficulties with McMillan's tempo paces. Beyond that, keep in mind that they are still guidelines and are optimum training ranges for the fit runner. You will still benefit even if you are at the slow end of the range or even slower, but it won't be optimal training. Too many runners try to stretch their long run beyond what their base supports. As a result they need to slow down well beyond what McMillan suggests as the long run pace range. A corollary of this is that McMillan's paces don't match well with many of the beginner and intermediate training plans that place a heavy emphasis on the weekend long run. The choice in which approach to use is up to you.

                  2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race

                  happylily


                    Pace calculations like those for McMillan's calculator are often based on Daniels' VDOT or a similar measurement. To get the proper training ranges the instructions direct that you use your BEST recent time. If that happens to be your 5K, then those are the paces you should be using. The ranges are intended to take into account individual variations as well as variable conditions including how tired you are. If they seem fast that may be because you aren't used to including speedwork regularly in your training, especially VO2Max intervals and repetitions. Of the pace ranges most runners seem to have the most difficulties with McMillan's tempo paces. Beyond that, keep in mind that they are still guidelines and are optimum training ranges for the fit runner. You will still benefit even if you are at the slow end of the range or even slower, but it won't be optimal training. Too many runners try to stretch their long run beyond what their base supports. As a result they need to slow down well beyond what McMillan suggests as the long run pace range. A corollary of this is that McMillan's paces don't match well with many of the beginner and intermediate training plans that place a heavy emphasis on the weekend long run. The choice in which approach to use is up to you.

                     

                    +1 to this.

                     

                    I have never had any problems with the McMillan's paces and I always base them on my most recent best time, even if that happens to be a TT. The range is wide enough that I can always manage to fall within it, whether I am tired or in good condition. For me, I tend to fall at the fast end of tempo and easy'LRs paces. But I am at the slow end of all interval and stride ranges. That may be because I have been training for so long for marathons. Once you increase your mileage, you should have no problem hitting the paces in the correct range for you.

                    PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013

                            Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013

                    4 years racing, 16 marathons, 16 BQs     


                    Trail Monster

                      Pace calculations like those for McMillan's calculator are often based on Daniels' VDOT or a similar measurement. To get the proper training ranges the instructions direct that you use your BEST recent time. If that happens to be your 5K, then those are the paces you should be using. The ranges are intended to take into account individual variations as well as variable conditions including how tired you are. If they seem fast that may be because you aren't used to including speedwork regularly in your training, especially VO2Max intervals and repetitions. Of the pace ranges most runners seem to have the most difficulties with McMillan's tempo paces. Beyond that, keep in mind that they are still guidelines and are optimum training ranges for the fit runner. You will still benefit even if you are at the slow end of the range or even slower, but it won't be optimal training. Too many runners try to stretch their long run beyond what their base supports. As a result they need to slow down well beyond what McMillan suggests as the long run pace range. A corollary of this is that McMillan's paces don't match well with many of the beginner and intermediate training plans that place a heavy emphasis on the weekend long run. The choice in which approach to use is up to you.

                       

                      Thanks WC. I understand these ranges are optimal. I just know I actually cannot hit them. My paces based on my 5k PR would be:

                       

                      Recovery: 10:06 - 10:50

                      Long: 9:01 - 10:20

                      Easy: 9:00 - 9:59

                      Steady: 8:26 - 8:48

                      Tempo: 8:06 - 8:23

                       

                      i ran my last steady state run (7 miles) at 9:41 average and that would fall into a long run above. It was nowhere near even easy pace for me. I couldn't have spit out a whole sentence by mile 3 or 4 and I couldn't wait to be done. If I had tried to run it at the 'slow' 8:48 pace above I wouldn't have been able to complete it. I guess I'll keep using my paces based on the HM TT and see where it takes me, except for intervals based on the 5k. Better to not injure myself and not make the biggest gains than overreach and end up on the sidelines, especially when I'm building my mileage anyway.

                      2013 races:

                      3/17 Shamrock Marathon

                      4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

                      7/27 Burning RIver 100M

                      8/24 Baker 50M

                      10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

                       

                      My Blog

                       

                      Brands I Heart:

                      FitFluential

                      INKnBURN

                      Altra Zero Drop

                      MJ5


                      Chief Unicorn Officer

                        I don't really use the ranges given by McMillan for anything other than interval workouts, from 200m up to 1000m.  I don't think it's good to put a defined number on something that is supposed to be an effort--easy pace, for instance, if the McMillan is too aggressive (which it is for me) then your easy runs are not easy and therefore you're not getting the benefit from them that you are supposed to.

                         

                        I use my 5K time because that is the race I do the most of, and my favorite distance, and the one I'm always trying to PR.  I do some halves occasionally, but they're infrequent.  I feel the paces from my half time will not help me improve my 5K.  Using my 5K times, the pace suggestions I get for an interval workout are pretty good.

                         

                        As far as tempo, I don't use that recommendation either.  I've heard a good rule is your 5K race pace + 30 seconds.  That always feels "comfortably hard" as people say a tempo should, so I think that formula is a good one.

                        Mile 5:49 - 5K 19:58 - 10K 43:06 - HM 1:36:54


                        Muddling through

                           

                          Thanks WC. I understand these ranges are optimal. I just know I actually cannot hit them. My paces based on my 5k PR would be:

                           

                          Recovery: 10:06 - 10:50

                          Long: 9:01 - 10:20

                          Easy: 9:00 - 9:59

                          Steady: 8:26 - 8:48

                          Tempo: 8:06 - 8:23

                           

                          i ran my last steady state run (7 miles) at 9:41 average and that would fall into a long run above. It was nowhere near even easy pace for me. I couldn't have spit out a whole sentence by mile 3 or 4 and I couldn't wait to be done. If I had tried to run it at the 'slow' 8:48 pace above I wouldn't have been able to complete it. I guess I'll keep using my paces based on the HM TT and see where it takes me, except for intervals based on the 5k. Better to not injure myself and not make the biggest gains than overreach and end up on the sidelines, especially when I'm building my mileage anyway.

                          Keep in mind McMillan is probably using the 20-40 minute range for his tempo run paces IIRC. That pace should gradually get slower with steady state runs as the distance increases. 9:41 falls within your easy run pace range.  Depending on your base mileage there are also limits to how far your tempo, steady state, and long runs should be. If you try to run within the McMillan ranges but extend your distance beyond what your base can support, those paces will be too hard. Think in terms of some of Daniels' recommendations for what percentage of your mileage should be speedwork or tempo runs. Ditto for length of long run in relation to weekly mileage and number of days run per week. As a final thought on this post, it would be better to look at the individual mile paces than the average time. As an example my last tempo workout I averaged 10:54, much slower than McMillan's pace range for me. But when you factor in a mile plus warm-up at 11:20 pace and close to a 2-mile recovery and cooldown averaging 11:30+, my actual tempo portion was about 9:50 pace for 20 minutes and I ran it more like a progression run so by the end I was reaching McMillan's tempo pace range.

                          2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race

                          meaghansketch


                            like wcrunner says, the McMillan paces are (or at least were) based on Daniels' VDOT measurement, but within the past year were made much more aggressive.  Your 5K time gives you an approximate VDOT of 39--

                            here are the Daniels paces for that VDOT:

                             

                            E pace (easy/long) - 10:23

                            M pace (marathon pace) - 8:57

                            T pace (20 minute tempo, longer would be adjusted) - 8:22

                            I pace (intervals): 1:54 for 400m/ 4:48 for 800m

                            R pace (repetitions: 0:53 for 200m/ 1:48 for 400m

                            Up next: Front Runners New York LGBT Pride 5-mile  06/28 |  NYRR Team Championships: Women (5M) 08/02

                            Goal race: NYCRUNS Haunted Island 10K 10/25


                            Trail Monster

                              like wcrunner says, the McMillan paces are (or at least were) based on Daniels' VDOT measurement, but within the past year were made much more aggressive.  Your 5K time gives you an approximate VDOT of 39--

                              here are the Daniels paces for that VDOT:

                               

                              E pace (easy/long) - 10:23

                              M pace (marathon pace) - 8:57

                              T pace (20 minute tempo, longer would be adjusted) - 8:22

                              I pace (intervals): 1:54 for 400m/ 4:48 for 800m

                              R pace (repetitions: 0:53 for 200m/ 1:48 for 400m

                               

                              Thanks! That's still obviously too fast for me being that my marathon pace is still 10Tight lippedx but I'll work towards increasing my pace over the coming months.

                              2013 races:

                              3/17 Shamrock Marathon

                              4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

                              7/27 Burning RIver 100M

                              8/24 Baker 50M

                              10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

                               

                              My Blog

                               

                              Brands I Heart:

                              FitFluential

                              INKnBURN

                              Altra Zero Drop


                              Antipodean

                                My PRs are not far away from yours, although I haven't run longer distances yet. I also struggle to get to McMillan paces. I know I need to build up distance and develop a base before I consider starting HM training later in the year. I don't have anything to add to the discussion except your approach seems sensible and keep at it!

                                Julie

                                 

                                PRs:  1 mile  6:57  //  5k   24:12  //  5 mile  39:32*  //  10k   49.10*   //  Half  1:52:18

                                 

                                * courses slightly short

                                 

                                "It's not the mountains we conquer, but ourselves."

                                ~ Sir Edmund Hillary

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