Beginners and Beyond

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Moist air vs dry air.......good/bad/indifferent? (Read 211 times)

redrum


Caretaker/Overlook Hotel

    Noticing that the seasons are changing rapidly here in So Cal.  After a slight roller coaster ride of warm then cold then warm again we're definitely in the throws of fall/winter.

     

    Anywho, got me thinking as I tend to like it when I see fog rolling in.  I think it's instinctively because it's "cooler" now and cooler just feels better.  However, I also know that in racing (auto) that moist air is not good for oxygen density.

     

    Does the same apply for running?

     

    FWIW, hot & dry hurts.  Cold & dry burns.  Hot & humid just sucks.  So I find cold & moist favorable.

    Artist formerly known as "redgtxdi" / Randy


    @runjerseygirl

      I agree.  My Sunday morning long run was cool and foggy.  I could see the moisture on my eyelashes, but it felt really good.  Breathing was easy.

      Do you even run?


      Sloooow.

        My first outdoor run, when it was 54F and regular humidity, I wanted to cry it felt so amazing. Lol.

         

        I never knew what it was like to live in a steam room until I got here.

          I can't speak to hot and dry, having never been out to the desert (on a horse with no name or otherwise).

           

          As for cold though, I prefer a bit of moisture in the air.  Damp, foggy or snowy calm days in the low 30's are good stuff.  Colder and harshly dry weather, of the kind where you start getting cracked fingers and lips if it persists, seems much harder to breathe in.

          Gustav1


          Danger makes me hungry

            Randy - good technical question. I know what you mean about racing - you can re-jet a carb but not a racer.

             

            I guess for normal training runs you wouldn't really notice it but for racing/VO2 you might notice something.

             

            I wonder if training in humidity would be similar to training at higher altitudes.

            Moving forward one step at a time :-)

              This is a good question and I have a guess but it's just a guess.

               

              My guess is that it is irrelevant in terms of the oxygen you can extract from the air.  I say that because your lungs move much more oxygen - 6 to 8 times more IIRC - than your body can actually use.  In other words, most of the oxygen you suck into your lungs is simply exhaled out and does nothing for you.  So, even if the moisture content is higher, my guess is that it doesn't matter even in a race in terms of VO2max.

               

              Having said that, humid air has an enormous negative performance impact when racing because one of the major limiting factors in a race is your body's ability to cool itself.  In humid conditions, the sweat on your skin evaporates more slowly so you body doesn't cool itself as efficiently.  When your  body doesn't cool itself as efficiently, you slow down.  Or you blow up and walk.

              Short term goal: 2:59:59 (November, 2013)

              Mid term goal:  Any race over 80% of top AG standard

              Long term goal: To say I've been a runner half my life.  (I started running at age 45).


              Bad Ass

                Hot and humid causes me more asthma attacks than hot and dry or cold and dry, or even cold and humid.  So that one makes a difference to me.

                 

                And we won't go on about LV and it's dry fucking weather.  Angry

                Damaris
                Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                PRs: 24:57 (5K); 51:25 (10K); 42:46 (5 Miles); 2:04:31 (HM); 4:34:09 (Marathon); 8:00 (Trail 50K)

                 

                Next:  Chicago Marathon * MCM * NYCM * Ft. Myers Beach Marathon * Space Coast Marathon * WPB Marathon * Disney Marathon * Clearwater Marathon * RnR New Orleans Marathon * A1A Ft. Lauderdale Marathon

                 

                Damaris Runs with Asthma

                Robert31320


                Former fatboy

                  I run in high humidity all the time living on the coast.  Let me clarify slightly, I run in the mornings when the humidity is high.  If/when I run in the evenings the humidity is typically much lower and I have a terribly dry mouth then.  With all that said, give me moist air and I'm happy.

                  Run till your hat drips!

                   

                  Joined the Sub-30 5K club on 3/23/13

                   

                  Goal Race: Savannah RnR Half Marathon on 11/9/13


                  Pin Cushion

                    Caveat:  I have lung damage, so not a "normal" runner.

                     

                    For me, cold dry air is by far the worst in terms of chest discomfort and breathing. I suffer pretty much all winter running outside, and I usually develop a cough from it. 

                     

                    Cold, wet air does not seem to effect my breathing, and I don't get a cough after running in cold rain, for example.

                     

                    I have never been to a desert climate, so I don't know about warm, dry air.

                     

                    As long as the air quality is ok, I do fine running in warmer, humid weather (although of course then you have issues of having to slow down due to the heat itself).  Air quality is a totally separate issue; if there is a lot of ozone around that tends to bother me no matter what the weather.

                     

                    I have found that the best running conditions for me are the low to mid 50s with drizzle/mist or fog.

                    Jenny loves to run.

                      There may be a difference though in perceived comfort vs. performance.  In terms of perceived comfort, I love it when it's about 55-60 degrees and partly cloudy.  However, I recognize that 55-60 degrees is warmer than is optimal for maximum racing performance.  For maximum racing performance, I need to be fairly chilly when I'm standing at the start.  That isn't comfortable but the less blood your body has to divert to your skin for cooling, the more it can send to your muscles for running.

                      Short term goal: 2:59:59 (November, 2013)

                      Mid term goal:  Any race over 80% of top AG standard

                      Long term goal: To say I've been a runner half my life.  (I started running at age 45).

                      redrum


                      Caretaker/Overlook Hotel

                        This is a good question and I have a guess but it's just a guess.

                         

                        My guess is that it is irrelevant in terms of the oxygen you can extract from the air.  I say that because your lungs move much more oxygen - 6 to 8 times more IIRC - than your body can actually use.  In other words, most of the oxygen you suck into your lungs is simply exhaled out and does nothing for you.  So, even if the moisture content is higher, my guess is that it doesn't matter even in a race in terms of VO2max.

                         

                        Having said that, humid air has an enormous negative performance impact when racing because one of the major limiting factors in a race is your body's ability to cool itself.  In humid conditions, the sweat on your skin evaporates more slowly so you body doesn't cool itself as efficiently.  When your  body doesn't cool itself as efficiently, you slow down.  Or you blow up and walk.

                         

                        I was going to mention something about the lung's capacity as I remember reading that before.  Unlike an engine, we only process a fraction of what we breathe in.  That's definitely a significant difference. 

                         

                        Also, I like the part about sweat.  I do know that in summer it feels horrible when the sweat just overwhelms.  In fact, I think I can sometimes feel the blood practically ready to boil at the surface of my skin when it's horribly hot out and definitely not an issue in the cold, moist climate.

                         

                        And DEFINITELY gotta take Jenny's word for it.  With special lung considerations in regards to your case, I can definitely feel good about running in cool, moist air. Big grin

                        Artist formerly known as "redgtxdi" / Randy


                        Pin Cushion

                          Not a doctor and did not even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but my understanding is cold, dry air tends to constrict the lung passages, which in turn leads to bronchospasm.  Studies have shown there are very high rates of exercise-induced asthma among cross country skiers, so at a certain point it seems nearly everyone is susceptible to the effects.

                           

                          I definitely seem to run better when it is warm  Roughly 45 to 55 degrees is my "sweet" spot where my lungs are happy and the rest of me is also happy.

                          Jenny loves to run.

                          ilanarama


                          yeah, that's me.

                            I don't get the argument that it doesn't matter because our lungs don't process all the O2 we breathe in - if that were true, altitude would have no effect, and we know that it does. However the variation in O2 due to moisture is quite small as compared to the variation with altitude.  (I'm a meteorologist, in case you didn't know.)  LTH's other argument, though, about cooling one's body, makes sense to me.

                             

                            I live in the desert (well, it is technically a steppe climate) and 90% of my running is in very dry air, although it never gets very hot (or rather, I run early mornings in the summer so I don't have to run in heat) and I far prefer it to running in humidity.  Even though e.g. 50F here feels much warmer than 50F in a humid climate (I recently visited my family in the DC area and had to wear tights and long sleeves for a run - in the same temperature here I am in shorts and short sleeves!) it is also more enjoyable to me.

                            PRs: 5K 21:03 (4/2012) 10K 43:06 (12/2011) 13.1 1:37:01 (3/2010) 26.2 3:29:13 (1/2012)

                              I wondered about the variation in O2 due to moisture and I guessed it was small enough to ignore but didn't know for sure.  Is it possible to say that every "x%" of humidity reduces O2 by the same amount as "y feet" in altitude?

                              Short term goal: 2:59:59 (November, 2013)

                              Mid term goal:  Any race over 80% of top AG standard

                              Long term goal: To say I've been a runner half my life.  (I started running at age 45).

                              ilanarama


                              yeah, that's me.

                                I imagine it would depend on dewpoint rather than %RH (that is, on temperature as well as humidity) and also on actual altitude.  E.g. the difference between 5000 and 9000 feet looks huge but in terms of actual oxygen decrease it's not much, because of the exponential curve of air density with altitude.  http://wahiduddin.net/calc/density_altitude.htm gives some discussion of this and does some calculations.  (Some of his examples are rather contrived, though.  Wink

                                PRs: 5K 21:03 (4/2012) 10K 43:06 (12/2011) 13.1 1:37:01 (3/2010) 26.2 3:29:13 (1/2012)

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