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Low HR Training
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Effects of hiking (Read 294 times)
RunZRun
running yogi
 posted: 10/27/2008 at 5:30 PM
I hike once a week. Not anything very strenuous. Distance wise not more than 10 miles, but I definately go over my MAF heart rate and stay that way for several minutes at a time.

Will this (badly)affect my low-hrm training ?
Shiksa
My first marathon!
 posted: 10/27/2008 at 10:43 PM
Are you the pure base phase?

The answer is yes I think. No matter what your exercise, staying below MAF is key to improvement during the base-building phase and beyond. I think that is why Maffetone discourages weight-lifting and other sports with spurts of energy that push the HR over your MAF HR.

Another user on this board (I'm so sorry I cannot remember who!) was talking about limited improvement by keeping the average HR below MAF vs. spending all exercise time under MAF. I have found this to be true as well.

I am fudging a little bit here and there understanding that I'm also sacrificing some improvement. It's been a learning process over the past year. I'll go back into the pure base phase by the middle of November, and I'll fine-tune all that I have learned this past year, and hopefully translate that into marked improvement.
Stacy
I make no apologies for my liberal use of smiley icons.
jimmyb
posted: 10/28/2008 at 12:40 AM
Quote from RunZRun on 10/27/2008 at 5:30 PM:
I hike once a week. Not anything very strenuous. Distance wise not more than 10 miles, but I definately go over my MAF heart rate and stay that way for several minutes at a time.

Will this (badly)affect my low-hrm training ?



Keeping track of your MAF tests and certain benchmark runs will let you know the answer to this. If they don't improve over 6-12 weeks, or they get worse, then something is impeding progress. You would then have to stop the hikes to see if they were the reason--this might not be an option for you due to love of the hike. Instead an option would be to MAF train the hike. Perhaps, your hiking endurance would skyrocket over time.

If you're improving, then the stress of the hiking isn't enough to inhibit your progress. You might find that the MAF training improves your hiking HR's.

"pure" MAF base phase is fine, but so might 6 days of MAF with a hike. Experimentation, keeping track of data will reveal the answers.

--Jimmy
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RunZRun
running yogi
 posted: 10/28/2008 at 3:27 PM
thanks for the feeedback. i am in pure base building phase, but i have not been wearing my hrm during hikes which i think i should.

jimmy, you are right, i think do find myself less out of breath when i am doing uphills. i didn't hike much all summer mostly because of the heat here, but i was doing LHR training all summer.

in general my MAF improvement has been is very slow, i believe mostly because my weekly milage is very low. but there definately has been improvement.
bzaganjo
posted: 10/29/2008 at 2:08 AM
This is a very interesting topic. I just finished a marathon and want to base build, but also want to do more cross-training (ie. lifting weights, plyometrics, swimming, rock climbing and anything else, isn't that how you get stronger and work other muscles and prevent injuries????????). During these other workouts, i'm guessing my hr goes over maff, especially when I swim because I am just starting to learn and do laps.

Everyone talks about staying "strictly" below maff when base building. Whether it be hiking or any other form of cross training, you might go over maff, BUT if you go over for 5% of the time, is this teaching your body not to use fat as fuel? I would guess not because you are still using fat as energy for 95% of the time. Thats just my opinion, but who knows.
jimmyb
posted: 10/29/2008 at 4:06 AM
All depends what are you trying to do, why you are doing it, and where you are, and what you are willing to commit to, and for what reasons, and why, because of what you are trying to create in your life, and how badly you want it, and what you are willing to do to make it happen, and for what reasons, and for what you believe is necessary and right for you. Is that clear?
:>)

Regular MAF tests will help you to keep track of what is working and what isn't.

--Jimmy
Running Log
MAF tests
5 x 2400m tests
Marathons, PR's, Profile
bzaganjo
posted: 10/29/2008 at 5:10 PM
Very true Jimmy, guess I need to keep track of my maff tests each month and see whats going on. Good questions though. It does make sense.
bzaganjo
posted: 11/3/2008 at 11:58 PM
modified: 11/3/2008 at 11:58 PM
Ok, I know I'm probably beating this with a stick, but I did some weight training today with a HRM just to see what my HR was like during the workout. My maff is 155 and I stayed below it pretty much all of the time, except when I did a few sets of pull-ups in which it climbed over, but then went back down after I finished. My average was 123 for a 45 minute workout.

I'm still not sure if this negatively affects my basebuilding as I only went over my maff for 3% of the time??
slowgino
posted: 11/4/2008 at 1:03 AM
Quote from bzaganjo on 10/29/2008 at 2:08 AM:

... BUT if you go over for 5% of the time, is this teaching your body not to use fat as fuel? I would guess not because you are still using fat as energy for 95% of the time...

I doubt that this is teaching your body not to use fat as fuel. Of course, you are almost always using fat for fuel... just a different % of the total Calories at different HRs. A good VO2 test will show you all that, but this still doesn't answer the question "What is the most effective mix of HR training points to build endurance, stamina, etc optimally?" FWIW my "MAF" determined by the deflection point (point of inflection) in the RQ vs HR curve has me at 80% fat / 20% carbs, but if I go to MAF+11 or MAF+12 I am at 50/50 and at MAF+30 I am at my AT burning 100% carbs.

30 years ago I never had a problem with running easy/comfortably 95% of the time and going faster 5% of the time. E.g. doing 60 mpw all easy except for a 10K road race every couple weeks worked out to 95% easy/5%harder. I think the best thing is just to get plenty of aerobic base mileage (MAF, e.g.). I doubt that, once you have a good base, 5% of your mileage being harder will hurt your fitness.
RER
posted: 11/5/2008 at 1:49 AM
Quote from RunZRun on 10/27/2008 at 5:30 PM:
I hike once a week. Not anything very strenuous. Distance wise not more than 10 miles, but I definately go over my MAF heart rate and stay that way for several minutes at a time.

Will this (badly)affect my low-hrm training ?


It could certainly affect your base-building. I hike a couple of times during the week, including some big hills, but my HR never gets over my MAF. Sounds like once you build more aerobic base, you'll not have a problem hiking without going over your MAF, even at the same hiking pace.
DavidD
RER
posted: 11/5/2008 at 1:50 AM
Quote from bzaganjo on 11/3/2008 at 11:58 PM:
Ok, I know I'm probably beating this with a stick, but I did some weight training today with a HRM just to see what my HR was like during the workout. My maff is 155 and I stayed below it pretty much all of the time, except when I did a few sets of pull-ups in which it climbed over, but then went back down after I finished. My average was 123 for a 45 minute workout.

I'm still not sure if this negatively affects my basebuilding as I only went over my maff for 3% of the time??


You can not use a HRM to determine whether weight training is aerobic or anaerobic -- it's always anaerobic regardless of your HR.
bzaganjo
posted: 11/7/2008 at 2:12 PM
Quote from RER on 11/5/2008 at 1:50 AM:
You can not use a HRM to determine whether weight training is aerobic or anaerobic -- it's always anaerobic regardless of your HR.


You might not be able to use your HRM to to determine if it is aerobic or anaerobic, but it is not always anaerobic. In the Book Slow Burn, Mittleman say's:
"Aerobic weight training creates leaner, more toned muscles with great stamina by relying on a higher number of repetitions and the use of lower weights.The lower-weight/higher-rep strategy of muscular endurance training stimulates the aerobic fat-burning muscle fibers, causing them to increase their capacity to exert a moderate force for a longer and longer duration."
RER
posted: 11/7/2008 at 3:32 PM
Quote from bzaganjo on 11/7/2008 at 2:12 PM:
You might not be able to use your HRM to to determine if it is aerobic or anaerobic, but it is not always anaerobic. In the Book Slow Burn, Mittleman say's:
"Aerobic weight training creates leaner, more toned muscles with great stamina by relying on a higher number of repetitions and the use of lower weights.The lower-weight/higher-rep strategy of muscular endurance training stimulates the aerobic fat-burning muscle fibers, causing them to increase their capacity to exert a moderate force for a longer and longer duration."


He's wrong. While the aerobic fibers contract (along with the anaerobic fibers) during weight lifting, the net effect, metabolically, is anaerobic. One could increase their aerobic muscle fiber capacity by weight training, but you still have to develop aerobic function at some point (aka, an aerobic base), but it won't happen very well while you're weight training (partly due to the higher cortisol levels created by weight training).

The best time to weight train is after base building as we've discussed here many times. As the MAF test improves (over months) it will eventually plateau, which is the perfect time to add weights or other anaerobic work.

Sorry to get off the topic.
bzaganjo
posted: 11/7/2008 at 5:05 PM
Thanks for the input RER, guess I have to rethink my basebuilding for the next 5 months. Think I'm going to try it with weights for a month and see if there is a progression or not and decide from there if I will continue with them. I don't know how much physiologically it helps running (i've read both for and against lifting), but after a few weeks of lifting only once or twice a week I already feel stronger then I did when I was just running. And when I talk about weights, I usually do total body low weight with high reps (12-15) and everything on the stability ball or balancing on something (bosu, dyna disc, etc).
RER
posted: 11/7/2008 at 5:18 PM
Quote from bzaganjo on 11/7/2008 at 5:05 PM:
Thanks for the input RER, guess I have to rethink my basebuilding for the next 5 months. Think I'm going to try it with weights for a month and see if there is a progression or not and decide from there if I will continue with them. I don't know how much physiologically it helps running (i've read both for and against lifting), but after a few weeks of lifting only once or twice a week I already feel stronger then I did when I was just running. And when I talk about weights, I usually do total body low weight with high reps (12-15) and everything on the stability ball or balancing on something (bosu, dyna disc, etc).


You should feel stronger when lifting weights, because you get stronger. But running is not a strength/power sport, it's endurance related. Physiologically, weights help running very little, if at all, and the risk of reducing aerobic function (overtraining) is high.

Hiking CAN help endurance (had to somehow get back on topic -- been on too many panels where they don't let you drift away...) Smile
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