Low HR Training

Good RHR, Bad RHR (Read 294 times)
lowgear1


Max McMaffelow Esq.

posted: 6/23/2009 at 1:27 PM
modified: 6/23/2009 at 1:28 PM
Can someone shed some light on this?
I assumed, until recently, that in terms of RHR, lower is better.
Now it seems that, according to some, a drop in RHR may signal overtraining.

I may not be the best example, but just this morning my RHR was 45 bpm (this is low for me), and frankly, I felt especially well.
It's very confusing, because while my "average" RHR has been ~48.
I don't pull the plug on any runs until I see 53-54 and up.
Here is the wild card, though... I have gone from 30ish miles per week down to 20ish starting several months ago, and in fact have just recently gone even lower to 15-20ish.

Do you think that it's possible that I was overtrained previously, and that as a result of cutting back on training load, my improved sense of  well-being is a result of this cut-back? Furthermore, can the lower RHR be just a signal that I may have found the sweet spot (for now), in terms of training load? I ask, because if memory serves, a couple of years ago, I did see RHRs in this 45 bpm range. I'd love to continue to see this, as I ever so gradually build back to 30+ mile weeks.

One final factor. I have just recently allowed my training run heart rates to exceed Maf by ~ 10 bpm, but that was more a personal decision/experiment based on my quirky cardio condition. The elevated rate seems to be working very well. I'm more energized than ever, it seems. I just can't see that the new and improved RHR is hinting at overtraining. Regardless, I'll continue to monitor, and report my findings!
lg
♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)


Kiho Maru

posted: 6/23/2009 at 2:01 PM

lowgear1,

 

Who said that a low RHR is "bad" (under normal circumstances)?  I've read often that endurance training can lower the RHR over time, and that an elevated RHR (relative to ones normal RHR) can be a sign of over-training or illness.

 

It would be interesting to see if the RHR continues to remain low in successive days, or whether this was just "one of those days" (explanation unknown).

Napa Valley Marathon (CA)     Yakima River Canyon Marathon (WA)
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posted: 6/23/2009 at 2:57 PM
modified: 6/23/2009 at 2:59 PM

Hi LG,

 

My sense is that your RHR is indicating some improved fitness.  I think someone had mentioned that for some people, that a temporarily low RHR sometimes means they need more recovery. 

 

Everybody is different.  I always experience a low HR for the pace I am running, when I need more recovery.  Just last week, the day after my race, I ran an 11:20 pace at an HR of 116 on my recovery run.  A week later, when I was more recovered, I ran about the same pace at a HR of 125.

 

When I first experienced this phenomena, I used to think I suddenly got fitter.  Now I know that it just means that I am still recovering.
jimmyb


posted: 6/23/2009 at 3:01 PM

What I've noticed over the years is that sometimes  after a long run my next day's RHR will drop significantly. Is this  a sign that my fitness improved overnight? I don't think so. I think it's a sign that rest is needed. Some people  report running faster at the same HR the next day. It could be due to this phenomenon. They are actually overtired.

 

In Maffetone's chapter on overtraining in Training For Endurance, the third level (the worst) of overtraining, includes a lowered RHR, among other symptoms.

 

The key is to keep track of your RHR. If suddenly you've gone from 50 to 45, and it wasn't gradual over time, it could be a sign of this overtraining syndrome. Most likely there will be other signs as well.

 

A one time quick drop probably isn't too signifcant, but if it continues be aware of overtraining.

 

--Jimmy


Dr. MLK,Jr brithplace

posted: 6/24/2009 at 12:42 AM

Now I understand why my RHR dropped from 54 to 45 in one day. 8 miles and 16 miles on bike. Will check RHR  in the morning if not back to 56-62 will take a rest day .

 

 

Thanks everyone

Run until the trail runs out
2010** Run 125 miles a month
10k <50:00
posted: 6/24/2009 at 11:04 AM
modified: 6/24/2009 at 11:45 AM

Recovery Run

2.85 miles

AveHR=115

33:11 (11:39 pace)


I just experienced the low HR phenomenon again.  It is normally in the 120s for this pace.  This is the day after a hard workout for me.  This is what I routinely see after a hard workout.  I have never noticed a low RHR, but I do not monitor it closely.  I do notice a high RHR the night after a hard workout.

 

Sometimes I wonder, when I am in this state, whether it is good to even be doing a Recovery Run?  I definitely feel sluggish, but I keep a very easy pace and keep the distance short, and I obviously keep the HR low.

 

I am curious about what other people think and what their experience is.  Is it better to do a very easy recovery run, or is it better to take a complete rest day?  Which is more beneficial?  From what I have read, it seems that most favor doing a recovery run, and they use the term "Active Recovery".

 

I do notice that after a couple of days, whether I rest or do easy running, the HR comes back to normal.

 

LG, I agree with Jimmy about just keeping an eye on the RHR.  Based on the fact that you have actually been cutting back on mileage, and that you felt good, I thoguht perhaps your RHR was indicating improved fitness, but you can't be sure unless you see some trend and keep an eye on it.
lowgear1


Max McMaffelow Esq.

posted: 6/24/2009 at 12:38 PM
48,
Your questions regarding rest vs "active recovery" are most interesting. Hope Jimmy and others can clarify.
Also, your experience with elevated rates the evening following a hard run seems a little familiar. Some time back,
when I knew nothing about training loads, I got a little carried away and did some pretty intesnse stuff (for me) and
it seems I experienced the same higher readings in the evening. I remember hammering down some hills way too fast! Great fun, but it's a wonder I survived without injury.

Thanks folks, for the insights regarding RHR.
For what it's worth, my reading was 46 this morning.
All things considered, (recent training load, sleep, diet, gen health) my baseline RHR appears to be in a 44-48 range.
I'll try to log daily. I can see where a sudden shift lower OR higher could spell trouble, but strongly sense that my own
settling to this range has been a result of improved fitness. I will continue to keep abreast, naturally.
lg
♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)


Pond View

posted: 6/24/2009 at 1:30 PM
modified: 6/24/2009 at 1:32 PM
LG, I think it sounds like your low RH is a sign of improved fitness - all your other body feedback is very postive; does not sound like overtraining to me.

48, I have often wondered the same question - and I have not reached a conclusion. From what I can gather from reading different threads on different running sites about this issue is that everyone is different in regard to recovery. Most younger people are able to recover faster than most older people - that's a general rule and everyone seems to agree on the age factor. Some people say that it may be better for an older person to rest on recovery days rather than run in order to reduce the pounding and the wear and tear on tissue that is no longer as elastic as when younger. I have tried both methods - running/jogging slowly for recovery and resting for recovery. I find that resting is the better way for me. But it has taken me a whole year of being injured to realize that what I needed was not more mileage but complete rest in order to recover. I am 49.

I say, try both ways to see what works for you. 

There is also the possibility of crosstraining on recovery days - active recovery w/o the running motion and pounding associated. This could be in the form of a walk, swimming, pool-running, elliptical, bike etc.
5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR
10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR
1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR
Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ
50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB


Dr. MLK,Jr brithplace

posted: 6/24/2009 at 8:58 PM
Quote from flower on 6/24/2009 at 1:30 PM:
LG, I think it sounds like your low RH is a sign of improved fitness - all your other body feedback is very postive; does not sound like overtraining to me.

48, I have often wondered the same question - and I have not reached a conclusion. From what I can gather from reading different threads on different running sites about this issue is that everyone is different in regard to recovery. Most younger people are able to recover faster than most older people - that's a general rule and everyone seems to agree on the age factor. Some people say that it may be better for an older person to rest on recovery days rather than run in order to reduce the pounding and the wear and tear on tissue that is no longer as elastic as when younger. I have tried both methods - running/jogging slowly for recovery and resting for recovery. I find that resting is the better way for me. But it has taken me a whole year of being injured to realize that what I needed was not more mileage but complete rest in order to recover. I am 49.

I say, try both ways to see what works for you. 

There is also the possibility of crosstraining on recovery days - active recovery w/o the running motion and pounding associated. This could be in the form of a walk, swimming, pool-running, elliptical, bike etc.

Can biking be  a recovery day? Keeping it below MAFF. I have been tiring to decide.

Run until the trail runs out
2010** Run 125 miles a month
10k <50:00


Pond View

posted: 6/24/2009 at 9:14 PM
Clay,

Yes, you can bike for recovery. It will give the specific running muscles a little rest while still making the blood flow through those tired muscles and help to move waste products away from them. More importantly, your body weight will not be pounding down on those muscles and all the ligaments, tendons and joints in the hips and legs. 
If you keep the resistance low (on a stationary bike) you will get your HR up a little but not a lot while still getting some of the positive effects of the increased blood flow to the "damaged" tissues that are trying to recover.

However, biking is not equal to rest. Some days you may just feel fatigue and perhaps you need a mental break as well. I think rest as in OFF is better on those days.

Clay, try biking to see how it works for you. Good luck and have fun!
5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR
10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR
1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR
Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ
50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB


Dr. MLK,Jr brithplace

posted: 6/25/2009 at 12:13 AM

flower Thanks,

 

bike 5        run 6   bike 3     run 2   volunteered 2 hrs  bike 9    on 06/20/2009 . Might ride the  bike on a recovery day  depending on the amount of weekly mileage.

Run until the trail runs out
2010** Run 125 miles a month
10k <50:00
lowgear1


Max McMaffelow Esq.

posted: 6/28/2009 at 9:18 PM
modified: 6/28/2009 at 9:21 PM

This Overtraining Article really caught my attention; especially the RHR references.

I like how it addresses the issues in a very concise way, while still explaining it well.

It's certainly opened my eyes, as I didn't realize how fine a line there can be.

While a little dated and basic to many, it really hit home for me. I need to pay closer attention, for sure!

lg
♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
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