Low HR Training

Brad Hudson Masters Marathon Program (Read 618 times)


Pond View

posted: 6/6/2009 at 12:14 PM
modified: 7/14/2009 at 2:03 PM
Istvan,

I am currently reading Brad Hudson, Matt Fitzgerald's book; it is one of the best running books I have read and I appreciate you recommending it. 
I find it teaches and informs and encourages the reader/runner to take charge of her/his own training/coaching. I am tempted to try to follow the Master's Marathon Plan in his book while keenly observing my body's response to the training as I go so I can make adjustments and adapt it to work for me as per his suggestions. I have never before trained for a marathon by myself - have run only 2 marathons and trained for the first one in a group that was coached; I was coached in the second one but did all the training for it solo. Right now I am trying to make a decision as to wether I should go back and train with the group again for my next marathon or attempt to coach/train myself using Hudson's program. I am leaning toward the latter as it is much easier for me to plan my own runs independently of when the group gets together. Last fall I was hurt 3 weeks into the program with the group - the intensity while training with the group is very high (running with lots of younger gals in the early and mid 40s and a few guys). 

I am impressed with the success you've had after starting to train using Brad Hudson's method. 3 PRs this year!! That's huge considering your vast background. 

I am afraid of taking on the task of training for a marathon all by myself. I don't know why but it seems like a daunting task to me - I feel perhaps with a program in my hand that gives me and idea of what to do day by day and week by week I can handle it. Also, the Master's training program involves running 3 days per week only which I think is what I need in order to recover between the runs. It looks like a program that I can do.
One of the hesitations I have is to run the long runs alone - last time I trained for a marathon I did a lot of very long runs alone and it became something I sort of dreaded doing - perhaps it was because I felt too fatigued and I had to struggle with the fatigue from very early on in the long runs; it became a mind game to convince myself that I was going to be able to complete the training run eventhough I felt extremely tired already at mile 10 (half way into it). Back then I trained ran 5-6 days per week and my mileage was in the 50s to low 60s - I was exhausted and did not get enough recovery. Maybe the long runs will be more enjoyable if I experience not being so fatigued. 

When I read about people like yourself that run marathons frequently and use some of the marathons as training runs it starts to look like a lot more fun than being out there by myself month after month. 

I appreciate your input and suggestions - your post to Shiksa was/is very nice and encouraging.

5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR
10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR
1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR
Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ
50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB


Kiho Maru

posted: 6/6/2009 at 3:26 PM
flower,

 

A wise person once said that "... a [long] journey starts with a single step ..."  Like Mittleman and Allen suggest in their writings, focus on small segments.  A 15 mile run is "just" a one mile run repeated 15 times, and running one mile is something you have done lots and lots of times.

 

Also, I suspect that you are low on energy after (during) long runs.  Practice the routine you will use in the race in your long (relative) training runs.  For me ... that involves the use of sports drinks or gels.  My preference is PowerBar or Accel gels every 40-45 minutes on runs longer than 13 (or so) miles.  This might go against the teachings of Maffetone (teach your body to use fat), but does wonders for "bonking".  There are lots of articles which suggest that the body has energy (sugar) for only 2 hours of running.

 

Another thought is that you might have muscle soreness after long (relative) runs, which does not help the mind set.  My remedy is Endurox R4, a carbo/protein supplement, consumed within the 30-45 minute "window" after a tough workout.  This (and similar) product helps with the "repair" process after the muscles have been stressed.  Truthfully, I can say that my legs feel fine (no discomfort) one day after a marathon.  A number of Marathon Maniac friends swear by chocolate milk and bananas, but the message is clear to "reload" the body as quickly after a tough workout.

 

 Finally, you CAN be successful in preparing for a marathon by training alone.  Running partners are fun, but often are not running your pace.  Find a place (route) where other runners train so that you see others while running, or maybe find one other person who runs at your pace for the long runs.  But, be careful to run at your pace ... with others or alone.

 

Glad you are enjoying the Hudson book.  When you're finished, try Fitzgerald's book titled "Runner's World Performance Nutition for Runners".  He is a very good writer and the book will explain how to treat the body before, during, and after a race.  Maybe we need a separate BOOK section for this message board (joke).

Napa Valley Marathon (CA)
Yakima River Canyon Marathon (WA)


Pond View

posted: 6/6/2009 at 6:59 PM
Istvan, Thanks -

You are right, I CAN do this successfully by myself and I think the time has come for me to train at my pace and to do it according to my plan (or Hudson's plan rather but chosen by me and taylored to suit me). 

I like your suggestion to run where I see other runners even if I don't run with them. I train on some very quiet trails where I see very few people - I may be able to find a different place to do my long runs.

My long runs as soon as I get a little above my current 9 miler will soon take 2, then 3, then 4 hours to complete. I remember often feeling rather overwhelmed at the start of a long-run and then having to quit thinking about how long it was or how long it would take and devide it into manageable segments - my loop was 3.5 miles long and I could fit in an additional different more challenging 6 mile loop in the middle to break things up; I became good at letting the run take the time it took. It helped to think about how I had felt the same way many times before while actually finishing every single one of them - building on previous success and reassuring myself that everything was exactly right and that my body knew what to do if I would relax and let it run. Still, it was hard - but as one of my friends says "Who said it was going to be easy?".

I am going to think more about the nutrition and hydration points you've made - I used to be proud of not using gels etc during my long or medium long runs but while I can be proud of it it may not have been smart. I have multiple severe food intolerances that make it almost impossible to find commercially made products to use. I have made my own drinks from maple syrup, OJ, and water in the past - it took me to a BQ marathon so I think it worked relatively well; however, I depended on a friend to hand me pre-mixed bottles along the route - I can't do that at many marathons. I will figure something out - better get started experimenting soon like you suggested.

Thanks again 



5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR
10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR
1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR
Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ
50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB


Kiho Maru

posted: 6/6/2009 at 9:05 PM
Flower,

 

Your idea of running routes of different distances is great.  I try to vary the routes just to keep the mind off the task at hand, and also to run scenic routes (look at birds, water, etc.).  Another trick is to tell myself that today is "only" one mile farther than last week (for your long runs) and I've run that distance before without incident.  Hey ... you've run a BQ, which is no easy task, so have dealt with these mental tricks before.  And it DOES get easier (physically and mentally) the more you do long runs.  My daughter, who runs 2-3 marathons each year, recently said that "... marathons are more of a MENTAL challenge than a PHYSICAL challenge ...".  With a proper training base, I must agree, especially after 15 or so miles.

 

On the topic of nutrition (before, during, after a run), consider using a Fuel Belt (or similar product).  On runs over 5-7 miles, I wear the Trail Runner Belt ( http://www.fuelbelt.com/fuel_belts/4_bottle.html ) which holds four 8 oz bottles, plus your cellphone and car keys, etc.  This would allow you to mix your own drink and not depend on others.  True, it does mean a little extra weight, but that will make you even tougher.  Use what worked best for you in the past, and then carry that winning formula through to the marathon.

 

You're making great progress on deciding what might work best for you and then giving it a try.  Each of our bodies are so different, it makes little sense to just copy what worked well for another person.  We really are an experiment of "one".

Napa Valley Marathon (CA)
Yakima River Canyon Marathon (WA)


Dr. MLK,Jr brithplace

posted: 6/6/2009 at 11:41 PM
Quote from flower on 6/6/2009 at 6:59 PM:
Istvan, Thanks -



I like your suggestion to run where I see other runners even if I don't run with them. I train on some very quiet trails where I see very few people - I may be able to find a different place to do my long runs.

Thanks again 



 Hopefully ,there is a paved trail or park near you for long runs. Where water fountains are available. In The ATL we have Stn Mtn . There are always runners to keep you company on the inner loop. The extra three miles on the outer loop is lonely.

 

The toughest part of the marathon is the training. Once you conquer the40+ training  mpw  the 26.2 is easy.

If you call call 26.2 miles EASY. 

 

 

 

Run until the trail runs out
2010** Run 125 miles a month
10k <50:00


Pond View

posted: 6/7/2009 at 2:14 AM
modified: 6/7/2009 at 2:18 AM
I am excited to be moving in direction of what I want to do - I am going to ever so gradually build my mileage up while I try to stick with 3 days per week of running. The kids are out of school which may mean I can get a 2 -2.5 hr slot to run in the early morning before all the tasks of the day start. I am already building. 20 weeks out I will fully embrace Brad Hudson's Masters Marathon training program. Step by step, day by day, week by week until race day.

How do I determine my target race pace? I have not raced for almost a year. There might be some information in Brad's book as to how to determine my current level; I have not fully read his chapter on self assesment but it seems I should be able to figure it out based on guidance from the book. 

Speaking about the book - do you do hill sprints, Istvan? How do you like them? Do you feel they build strength that helps prevent injury? 

Runnerclay, One of the things I like about the trail I currently train on is that it is not paved. I find it makes my feet, ankles, and legs stronger to run on the softer more uneven surface  - it also requires that I pay more attention to where I put my feet - it is easier to stay focused on the run. I will have to go somewhere else and run on hard top sometimes just so I get used to it before race day. There isn't much available in terms of trails in my area but there are still many unexplored trails for me to try.


5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR
10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR
1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR
Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ
50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB


Dr. MLK,Jr brithplace

posted: 6/7/2009 at 3:32 AM

I wish we had more dirt trails.

 

I have not raced in almost a year. The last race I did is coming up again this Saturday. I am planning to run it to see where I am  race wise. It is a 5k . May attempt to race P'tree  10k on the 4th of July.  55,000 people to weave past is a bit much.

Run until the trail runs out
2010** Run 125 miles a month
10k <50:00


Kiho Maru

posted: 6/7/2009 at 3:49 AM
Flower,

 

Hill strides are hard on my sciatic nerve, so I run them sparingly.  Maybe 2 times a month.  Also, I don't run faster than 10-Km pace, again because the added speed sets off my sciatic nerve.  My feeling is that 10-Km and Half-marathon pace are good enough (for this aging runner).  Instead, work on building up the ENDURANCE, or as Hudson says, the ability to hold the pace for the whole marathon.  Long runs do that trick.

 

My suggestion for pace ... base it on MARATHON performance.  True, there are lots of predictive models on the internet, including the excellent tools at McMillan Running Company.  I've taken your BQ marathon time, and reduced it to 3:55:00 for a goal.  Then I built a "pace chart" covering several months (can't remember when your marathon is).  This gives you a realistic place to START and allows you to move (speed) up if your body is adjusting well to the training.  I've used 5 second increments, but please start where you wish and change the times each month as you wish.  The "ModPlus" and "EasyPlus" are not in Hudson's book, but work well for me on those days when my body wants to back off just a little.  You'll likely find (via HR) that the "Full" through the "Full+60" paces are within your AEROBIC range, which means that 10% (or slightly less) of your training will be at ANAEROBIC pace.  That blends well with LHR training.

 

 

                ***************************    Specific Endurance   ****************************                        
                10-Km      13.1-Mi    26.2-Mi    Moderate        ModPlus    Easy          EasyPlus
                  Thres      Half          Full           Full+15           Full+30      Full+45      Full+60
Jun-09       8:00      8:30          9:00         9:15                 9:30            9:45           10:00
Jul-09        7:55      8:25          8:55         9:10                 9:25            9:40            9:55
Aug-09      7:50      8:20          8:50         9:05                 9:20            9:35            9:50
Sep-09      7:45      8:15          8:45         9:00                 9:15           9:30            9:45
Oct-09 

 

Hudson suggests increasing mileage OR speed, but not both at the same time.  However, these are very small increments, so a 1-2 mile per week increase should not create a problem.  I do suggest, however, that you keep the same pace for a month.

                               
                                

Napa Valley Marathon (CA)
Yakima River Canyon Marathon (WA)


Pond View

posted: 6/7/2009 at 6:26 PM
Istvan,

Thank you - you give much more than I bargain for - this will be of great help to me when I decide on my training paces as well as goal pace. My goal marathon isn't until December which gives me time to improve my paces and weekly mileage before I start the 20 week program. 
My BQ marathon will be 3 years ago when I race again in December. My running fitness was excellent at the time and aerobically I was very strong. The next year I was not is shape to run a marathon but I had trained to become just a little bit faster for the 1/2M distance and set a PR in the Half. Since then it has been downhill with injury.  I am not sure if I can get my body to respond so well to the training that I will be in equal or better shape again come marathon time. But it is a great goal and it is actually my goal so I will be working on it. We will see how my body responds to training all the different systems. I used to respond very well to hill training as well as tempo runs done at 10k-1/2M pace. I look forward to doing some of this stuff again.

For now, I am trying some Brad Hudson hill sprints - starting with 1, then 2 etc as he suggests for Masters. Also trying moderate progression runs on my long-run, which is still not very long. The hill sprints if I don't  overdo them and transition into them slowly should help me gain stregth before I start any of the faster work when I get to the 20 week program. 

I am already having a lot of fun and feeling very motivated and excited about my summer running and upcoming race season. Thanks for all your help.
5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR
10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR
1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR
Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ
50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB


Kiho Maru

posted: 6/7/2009 at 7:25 PM
Flower,

 

You're welcome.  I look forward to run days under the Hudson programs because of the rest days and also because of the VARIETY from day to day and even within a daily run.  Changing the pace (type of run) keeps the mind active and also trains the body to handle different situations which might arise during a race.  Hill strides also help develop running "efficiency" (form), and they don't cut into your aerobic capacity (too short in distance).

 

Happy training ...

Napa Valley Marathon (CA)
Yakima River Canyon Marathon (WA)


Pond View

posted: 6/8/2009 at 1:53 PM
modified: 6/8/2009 at 2:16 PM
Trail, 7mi, 1 hr22min17sec, it was nice - fog early, then clear sunny warmer as the run progressed. Ran easy but not slow - tried to keep the same effort/average pace on the second run around the loop as I did on the first eventhough it felt a little harder. I am not used to maintaining a pace that requires me to work the least bit hard (maffing for 4+ months). Running a pace that is a little faster than usual makes my mind have to wrap itself around this and the fear of not being able to hold it for the entire distance - but it worked out very well today. At the end, I drank water, walked to my "steep hill" and got the Garmin ready to time my 8 sec steep hill sprints. I did 3X8sec steep hill sprints. They are fun to do. It is such a completely new feeling to actually "gun it". I know I have to be careful to gradually transition into them and to recover properly after them so they don't injure me. If I can clear this hurdle the added strength I gain from them will help prevent injury in the near future as I pick up the pace on some of the oncoming marathon preparation runs.


I have been thinking about maffing. It is not clear to me why I didn't make good improvement doing maffing while I saw evidence that some other runners made significant improvements in the same or a shorter amount of time on nothing but maffing. In the past I know I made my greatest improvements in running both in terms of aerobic conditioning and ability to run faster over shorter and longer distances when I did various types of faster paced running exercises. Tempo runs, long LT intervals, short fast track work, long easy runs, mileage in the 40s-50s. My recent experience with MAF and the way I think of it right now is that it helped me realize that one of the reasons my body was injured was that I didn't pay enough attention to recovery/rest. But as far as giving me speed - no it did not. The fact is that by running very slowly I became even slower. However, in the long term it may serve me well - I may have developed part of my aerobic system in ways that I could not otherwise have achieved?! Also, it may serve me well to return to maffing for parts of the year - just like Mark Allen did. He did not train exclusively on maffing.







Interval 0.5 Mi 6:14.86 6:14.86 12:30 116 135  
Interval 0.5 Mi 5:44.68 11:59.54 11:30 128 135  
Interval 0.5 Mi 5:47.58 17:47.12 11:36 128 134  
Interval 0.5 Mi 6:00.28 23:47.40 12:01 134 143  
Interval 0.5 Mi 5:49.91 29:37.31 11:40 135 144  
Interval 0.5 Mi 5:53.44 35:30.75 11:47 138 150  
Interval 0.5 Mi 5:58.05 41:28.80 11:57 142 149  End of first 3.5 mile loop
Interval 0.5 Mi 5:45.96 47:14.76 11:32 139 147  Running same loop again
Interval 0.5 Mi 5:38.16 52:52.92 11:17 139 146  
Interval 0.5 Mi 5:44.49 58:37.41 11:29 140 143  
Interval 0.5 Mi 5:54 1:04:31.41 11:48 143 149  
Interval 0.5 Mi 5:53.41 1:10:24.82 11:47 144 150  
Interval 0.5 Mi 6:07.61 1:16:32.43 12:16 144 152  
Interval 0.5 Mi 5:44.63 1:22:17.06 11:30 147 152  
5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR
10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR
1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR
Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ
50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB


Kiho Maru

posted: 6/8/2009 at 7:01 PM
Flower,

 

Thanks for sharing your results.  It looks like the HR increased as you ran longer (normal) but also stayed well within the AEROBIC range.  Please tell me your HRmax and HRresting and I'll help calculate your target ranges with the Karvonen Method (maximum - resting).

 

But with a Maximum Aerobic Heart Rate = 130, your Mittleman Exercise zones look good:

   Most Aerobic Pace (MAP)           110-130

   Most Efficient Pace (MEP)          130-140

   Speedy Anaerobic Pace (SAP)  140-160

 

Today's run took you through all zones (which is good) and you stayed mostly in the MEP zone (also good).  Jimmy is better at this type of analysis, but I'd say you did a great job ... and had some fun.  I'm still guessing your MAF test scores will drop in the coming weeks (months).  Rock On!

Napa Valley Marathon (CA)
Yakima River Canyon Marathon (WA)


Pond View

posted: 6/8/2009 at 8:44 PM
This is great - I was thinking about asking for help with this. I don't know my HRmax but I registered 207 BPM a few days ago. Also, this morning RHR was 42 - it is mostly 42-45 (it's been lower but it might have been due to overtraining. I have to spend the next few hours volumteering at my son's swim time trial - will return to read later tonight. Thanks a million!
5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR
10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR
1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR
Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ
50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB


Kiho Maru

posted: 6/8/2009 at 11:01 PM
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Flower,

 

The Karvonen Method works with the “reserve” heart rate … calculated by subtracting the HR resting from the HR maximum.  Dr. Karvonen (physician) believed this was a better measure of one’s current fitness, irrespective of age.  It has been shown in many clinical studies to correlate highly with VO2 max  (lactic threshold) scores, which also makes it popular.  Here we go:

 

Heart rate–maximum = 207;  Heart rate–resting = 42;  Heart rate–reserve = 165 bpm

(Heart rate–reserve)  x  (percentage)  +  (Heart rate–resting)  =  Target Heart Rate

 

165 bpm  x  .50  =  82.5    +  42  =  124.5

165 bpm  x  .60  =  99.0    +  42  =  141.0

165 bpm  x  .70  =  115.5  +  42  =  157.5

165 bpm  x  .80  =  132.0  +  42  =  174.0

165 bpm  x  .90  =  148.5  +  42  =  190.5

 

50% to 59%  =  124 to 140  =  Moderate Activity (Maintenance)

60% to 69%  =  141 to 156  =  Weight Control (Fat Burn)

70% to 79%  =  157 to 173  =  Aerobic (Cardiovascular)

80% to 89%  =  174 to 189  =  Anaerobic (Lactic Acid)

90% to 99%  =  190 to 206  =  VO2 Max (Speed)

 

Maffetone isn’t particularly fond of these “exercise zones”, although his objections are less than against the Traditional Method (220 – age), but your heart rates today are well within the AEROBIC zones, which is a very important factor right now.  Obviously these are different from LHR training zones (Maffetone, Mittleman).

 

Doo itashimashite  (you're welcome)

Napa Valley Marathon (CA)
Yakima River Canyon Marathon (WA)


Kiho Maru

posted: 6/8/2009 at 11:48 PM
Flower,

 

In case you want to be more "conservative" with the exercise zones (maybe lower the maximum to 200 and raise the resting to 45), here is a good "calculator" to do all of the math.  It also explains a little about the Karvonen Method itself.

 

  http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpheart/target_heart_rate_equation_karvonen.php 

 

Where were all of these helpful web sites when we went to school?

Napa Valley Marathon (CA)
Yakima River Canyon Marathon (WA)