Raining this morning, and I wasn't feeling my best. Decided to break out the stationary bike and push the pedals with Robin Meade for a while.
35:00. AV HR 122
This was a pretty-classic Maffetone workout - 15 minute warm up, 10 minutes around MAF heart rates, 10 minutes cool down. Here's what I learned- I have very little biking fitness. My level of perceived effort for this workout was much higher than a run of the same length at the same heart rates. If I'd run 35 minutes at a 122 bpm average I'd hardly be sweating, now I've got a good sweat going. Some of this is due, no doubt, to working out indoors without a fan on me and some of it may be due to not fighting gravity, but the bike workout just felt more challenging.
Anyone here cross train reguarly? Does cross-training at MAF intensities build aerobic fitness for running?
Aaack!
My cross training is mostly kettle bell workouts and basic calisthenics. These however do get me to a higer HR and I am in the anaerobic zone. When I bike to work a couple of times per week I can keep it in the LHR area for most of the time. Not sure of the aerobic/anaerobic effects as the workouts are designed for muscle tone and strength more than anything else.
I'm not much help in determining an answer but an interesting question though.
GMoney,
I am curious about the same thing, and plan to conduct a little experiment of my own. Over the past 20 years, I have spent 100 times more hours on a bike than running. Having said that, I had not done either for 3-4 years until I started trying to get back into some basic shape in February of 2008. I started out going to spinning classes at the YMCA and that evolved into a walking/running program which evolved into maffing.
Anyway, a friend recently got a new bike and talked me into joining him for a few rides. Now, I hadn't been on a bike for 4-5 years but had been maffing and steadily building my running/walking mileage up to about 18-20 mpw. My running maf is 120 and I cannot run continuously without exceeding that number. But I was amazed at how easy it was to ride the bike at a relatively fast pace (for me) at 120 bpm.
So I am planning to continue running 3 days per week with one of those being a long run, and work in some cycling on the other days. I believe that it will help my running, at least at my beginner level.
Bob
Bob -
I took a look at the forum on Dr. Phil's website. There's a question there (in the "Sports" section) that's somewhat on point. It's called "Max aerobic HR in different sports." The question addressed why the 180- formula is appropriate regardless of the selected exercise modality (short answer - his research showed it was). In his reply, Dr. Phil stated: "[T]raining at one’s max aerobic heart rate...provides a specific stimulation for the brain and body; whether you are swimming, biking or running, that stimulation – that metabolic training – will be the same. What’s different is perceived exertion, which is not so much a physiological factor but more a mental one; it’s the subjective feeling of effort one has during a workout."
I've posed a follow up that hasn't appeared yet, asking him to clarify whether the benefits derived from training aerobically in one sport (say cycling) are transferrable to another (like running). Basically, if my aerobic pace on the bike gets faster will my aerobic running speed also improve. I'm curious to see whether he replies since I found the level of exertion on the bike today pleasantly challenging even though I was exercising at or below MAF the whole time. Running at MAF is often a bore for me and unstimulating. My hope is that perhaps I could use the bike to develop my aerobic base to a level where my my MAF running pace is closer to my natural running pace, then ditch the bike and get back to running.
I'll let you know if there's a reply.
Pond View
Gmoney,
I'm interested to hear his response. Thanks.
And thanks, Flower for the great post.
That's all I remember him saying. If memory serves ccorrect, I remember reading articles where injured runners have biked for the duration of their break (4-8 weeks or longer) and have not lost aerobic fitness. Some even got a little faster. That could also be that they rested their running muscles for the first time in a long time.
Your question to him would make for an interesting experiment.
--Jimmy
Thanks, guys. I'll let you know if there's a reply. Sometimes it takes a while (btw, Jimmy, I think your question about carbs during exercise is also one of the stickys on his board. He must have recognized its importance.)
I've posted about this before, but the big stumbling block for me with MAF running is fun. Running at MAF puts me into a really unnatural gait and just doesn't do anything for me mentally. The bike's a totally different story. Don't know if it would be as fun once the novelty wears off, but it might be worth experimenting with. My dream scenario would be to MAF exclusively on the bike (keeping a hard/easy pattern, of course) but only until I'd developed my aerobic platform to the point that I could run comfortably at MAF. That might be practical and, if Dr. Phil concurs, I'll be really tempted to embark on the experiment - once I get past Marines Corps in October (promised a friend I'd train with him and pace him to a 3:40 and can't back out).
I got a sense that this issue is addressed in "Training for Endurance." Sadly, I don't have access to that. I'm really looking forward to the next edition, because I can't see myself dropping $45 or more for the old version.
Wow - I got a reply from Dr. Maffetone! That was fast. Here's the thread:
GMoney
Virginia
Dr. Phil:
Thanks for your reply to the question above [regarding the applicabilty of the 180- formula across different sports]. Running is my joy, but right now (as you described) I find my aerobic running pace is too slow and unstimulating. Biking at my aerobic heart rate is much more fun for me since I can sustain a - to me - more stimulating level of perceived effort on the bike. You wrote that an athlete's metabolic conditioning at aerobic heart rates is the same regardless of the modality. Am I to understand that the aerobic benefits of my bike training will carry over to my running and allow me, eventually, to run faster aerobically? It would encourage me to stick with my aerobic biking to know that, eventually, I could leave the bike behind and resume running aerobically at the level of perceived effort I enjoy.
Many thanks for your help.
Hi, yes, the aerobic benefits you build on your bike will eventually carry over to your running. It will be interesting to see how long (or short) it takes for your cycling to become relatively hard to keep at your aerobic pace as you get faster at the same heart rate -- just the opposite of what you experienced on your runs. This would be an indication that you can start adding some running back into your week. Cross training is always a great routine -- mentally and physically. Dr. Phil
Sounds like he's daring me to experiment with the bike, doesn't it? Wonder if I'm man enough to take him up on it?
You are now one of the blessed (bleh-said). You are now a member of an exclusive club here on the LHRT forum. You have made contact with Dr. Phil. I have made contact. RER has sat with him and talked. You are definitely man enough to try the experiment--you displayed this by having the gump to write to him.
Interesting that he would mention that working MAF on a bike can get difficult after awhile. He writes about that in Training For Endurance. How swimmers and bikers often have to switch to aerobic intervals if they want to work at MAF.
You got your answer, now whatcha gonna do?.
Well, here's what I DID last night - got on the bike again for an aerobic sub MAF ride. Same thing as yesterday 15 minutes warming up, 10 minutes in "the zone," 10 minute cool down. A slightly longer cool down might be useful, but right now, 35 minutes feels like the right duration. Finishing the bike rides I do feel like I could do it again without undue physical strain (as Dr. Phil says), but I also feel that Lydiard "pleasantly tired" sensation.
What's next? Tough one. Before seeing Dr. Phil's reply I'd actually planned to shut down all exerise for a couple of weeks or so - my cold symptoms haven't abated. The two runs I did on Sunday and Monday landed me with some serious allergy/sinus problems on Tuesday. I also pulled a muscle in my shoulder lifting a garbage can down to the curb yesterday morning, which should not have happened since it was well lighter than my "one-rep max." The biking the past two days hasn't made me feel worse, but I'm not getting much better (except for the Eucalyptus oil which is "da bomb" for my nose). So, first step is to stop being sick (which may involve the application of napalm to some of the blooming plants in my yard and the subsequent application of concrete - kidding). I do NOT count this as a sensible, proactive, listening to my body, recovery break. This is an "You overdid it after the marathon, dumbass. Look at you now" forced recovery break. My penalty: a big fat -5 to my MAF. Now go sit in the corner and stop whining.
On the brightside, I was able to listen in to David Byrne's outdoor soundcheck for his show here in town last night. Tickets for the show were pricey. The soundcheck was free. "Life During Wartime" was great. Not to get off topic or threadjack myself, but, as a musician Jimmy, I presume you're aware that Athens is the home to many more bands than the B-52s, right? R.E.M., Widespread Panic, hell, even Danger Mouse called it home. Guadalcanal Diary started right nearby.
Get the sense I'm dodging your question, Jimmy? You're right. I've been a runner for over 20 years. Honestly, it's a big part of my identity. Running's gotten me through some very tough times in life and made some great times even better. I'm afraid about stepping away from it, even if only temporarily. Your dedication and faith in "the Method" really impress me, Jimmy. I don't know if I've got that level of discipline, motivation, and faith. There is also the issue of my buddy and Marine Corps this fall. I can't bail out on him and don't think I can convince him that a base building phase on a bike is the way to go. Hell, I can't even convince myself yet.
Time to take a big step back, a nice long breath of fresh air, and regroup.
The point Dr. Phil is making is that the bike will help your running, will never hurt it, unless of course you overdo it. No need to give it up, unless you want to be a martyr for science (MFS). I was an MFS once, I volunteered for a study for a men's hair color company (Just For Insecure Men). I had to let the hair color grow out to where I just had gray roots. They then paraded women past me, who then rated me on my attractiveness. Out of four thousand women, I got one thumbs up from a woman who was a skunk trainer from Canada. Two months of my life, not one date. Never again will I be an MFS.
Thanks for saying you are impressed with my faith and dedication. It's not really faith at this point, I know it works, if you stick to the game. My dedication is to a long range goal of smashing my PR in the marathon. I want to truly be an aerobic machine. One that doesn't lose all aerobic fitness after two weeks off. I want to get to the stage where MAF speed is so fast that aerobic intervals are really intervals.
Rest up G.
Max McMaffelow Esq.
Ditto what Flower says.
I really enjoy your posts! If it wasn't for the discomfort you must be experiencing, I'd be rolling on the floor
laughing. With your sense of humor, I have no doubt that you'll make a speedy recovery.
glimpse into the mind of this amazing man is a real blessing. Thank you for your efforts!
mta,
OK, that's it...with you and Jimmy both firing, I'm ROFLing. Can't help myself!!
Thanks, Flower, Jimmy, and LG. I appreciate the encouragement. Getting well is the first priority. If I'm pulling muscles taking out the trash, somethings' clearly amiss. I'd like the bike not to be an either/or proposition, for sure.
Still, Dr. Phil wrote: "This [the perceived effort level of biking becoming too high] would be an indication that you can start adding some running back into your week." (emphasis added) Maybe I'm parsing his words too closely, but they seem to imply that if I'm not comfortable with the experience of MAF running right now I should drop the running, use the bike to develop my aerobic system, and return to running when I'm aerobically stronger. We all know Dr. Phil's adamant about not exceeding the 180- number while base building. I take this as an example of how truly serious he is about that. Obviously, there are other approaches - Mittleman's, Hadd's, Douillard's, Ultrasteve's, Rudolf's, even my own marathon crash course from this spring (which suddenly seems a lot less successful to me now). My training's always my own responsibility, and I can do with it what I want. Just gonna have to think this one through. Getting my buddy his Marine Corps goal this fall is a big complication. Not to get too stupid, but right now, I feel a little like Luke Skywalker after he meets Yoda and has to choose between heading off to face Vader and save his friends or abandoning his friends so he can stay behind to finish his training.
What I need to do is not rush into anything - especially when I'm sick. Anything except rest that is. I have a vacation coming up. R&R in the sun will do me good and give me a chance to think this through. I'll have my copies of "The Maffetone Method" and "Slow Burn" with me for re-reading.
Jimmy, I am impressed with your faith and dedication - knowing it worked before may give you better reason to believe it will again, but there's always an element of faith. My goals are remarkably similar to yours, and I think you're on to a lot of good ideas with your approach. As I recall, Dr. Phi's message to you concluded that you're well capable of improving your marathon time and getting down to around 3 hours, right? Did that message from him influence your decision to return to MAF-orthodoxy?
David Byrne's sound check was impressive. Sharing "Stop Making Sense" with my kids was a lot of fun. Having them both there with me for the sound check was even cooler. "Road to Nowhere" was another really cool number. Sounded great with his large backing band, and even at an outdoor venue they were able to recreate that fat, full sound of the original recording. Walking down the street after it was over we came across a sidewalk musician doing his version of "Psycho Killer" - if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em.
