Low HR Training

"Expose Your Slow Twitchers" Daily Maffetone and/or Low-HR Training Reports (Read 23290 times)

newgeneration


    Another morning treadmill run. 7 miles, 10:20/mile, avg HR 136. I had been running HRs in the high 120's low 130's on previous runs at this pace. Not sure why the slight bump up today, perhaps I am coming down with something? Nice run yesterday, Greg. Welcome aboard, Hank.


    Slow-smooth-fast

      I only get to MAF in the last few miles of my "hard" runs (high mileage) or during MAF tests. Recovery days, I max at MAF-5. Once I get fit, my paces will be substantially faster. I looked at your PR's, and they seem to be in the same range as mine (our 5k is just 15 seconds apart), though I'm 20 years older, so I don't know if age has any play in explaining the difference in our MAF running. I've never run under 8:00 pace at MAF, yet. Haven't really given it long enough. Basically, during the aerobic or "patience" phase, I'll start my runs anywhere from MAF-10 to Maf-20 depending on the distance, then keep an even pace, letting HR max out as stated above. Once in awhile I'll do aerobic intervals aerobic hill repeats. Maxing out at MAF, and dropping to MAF -10 during rest. I don't know how to explain why your MAF running paces are so fast and close to your 5k-5m paces, just aprox. a minute over if you are running sub--8:00. Enjoy it! --Jimmy p.s. Now, we really don't like you, Mr. Sub--8:00.
      Bear in min my PRs were a while back, so when I am ready to retest hopefully I should really destroy them. Ok, what I am going to do is be really strict from now on, sometimes my hr goes up so i just get it back down asap. The reason my maf is 157 is because it is: 180-28+5. I add 5 because I regularly run races and have no illnesses etc.

      "I've been following Eddy's improvement over the last two years on this site, and it's been pretty dang solid. Sure the weekly mileage has been up and down, but over the long haul he's getting out the door and has turned himself into quite a runner. He's only now just figuring out his potential. Consistency in running is measured in years, not weeks. And over the last couple of years, Eddy's made great strides" Jeff 14 Jan 2009

      BeeRunB


        Bear in min my PRs were a while back, so when I am ready to retest hopefully I should really destroy them. Ok, what I am going to do is be really strict from now on, sometimes my hr goes up so i just get it back down asap. The reason my maf is 157 is because it is: 180-28+5. I add 5 because I regularly run races and have no illnesses etc.
        Have any zits? If you do, you can't take the +5. Maffetone has a cultish, obscure book called "Free-Flowing Sebum For Endurance". Informative. What goal races are coming up for you? What are you training for? Are you racing now, or in a base phase? --Jimmy
          Bear in min my PRs were a while back, so when I am ready to retest hopefully I should really destroy them. Ok, what I am going to do is be really strict from now on, sometimes my hr goes up so i just get it back down asap. The reason my maf is 157 is because it is: 180-28+5. I add 5 because I regularly run races and have no illnesses etc.
          I always thought it was best not to add the +5. What's your Max HR? This morning for me was 11.0 miles @ AHR=138(MAF=145) at 8:49/mile. This also includes a stop at a red light and my watch falling off and having to pick it up. Surprisingly, I've worn shorts three times this week, though this morning was very windy. I've now managed to run 19 out of the last 20 days. Tomorrow is a non-MAF day as I've got an interval workout so the HR will be getting very high. Word of advice do not buy the Polar RS800 watch. It is poorly made. I've had the watch for 13 months and I've had the watch band break twice already, the buttons become impossible to press and the footpad accuracy sometimes is unreliable. I would stick with Garmin.
          lowgear1


          Max McMaffelow Esq.

            I am starting to think this type of running is not helping me as much as I'd hoped. I have been doing all my runs under MAF (HR 130, age 50, MAF pace probably close to 12:30 or so on the track) for the last three months. Now it seems that I am completely comfortable running at MAF. But the last few days I've started to try for a little speed again, and it seems much more difficult for me to run faster than before I started MAFing. Before, my training runs were all done around 9:30 to 10:00 pace, and I ran my first marathon in October at average pace 9:30. (I was somewhat taking it easy during the race, because it was my first.) Now, when I try to run 6 miles at 10:00 pace, it feels like I'm hitting a wall! well, OK, not really a wall, but it definitely feels much harder than I recall. I can't understand how you all can do all of your long runs so slowly and then just break out at a fast pace for a real race. Is it due to the many years of MAF running you've been doing? Is it that you are actually athletes in disguise? I do feel the need at this point to change things somehow, because I'm starting my 18-week program for the second marathon, and I would really like to break 4 hours. Maybe it's time to give up on the MAF until after the race.
            Northernman, Very good question. I'm sure one of the experienced posters can shed some light on this. It's been in the back of my mind also. I'm in no hurry to leave the comfort of LHR zones any time soon, as i'm still improving ever so slowly, and enjoying the "free ride". Just out of curiosity I did a 5k a couple of months ago at maybe 85-90 % perceived effort. It resulted in a pace of nearly 3 minutes faster than my maf, and like you mentioned it was a little more difficult than I was expecting. A 5k isn't supposed to be a walk in the park though! If your capable of a 9:30 pace in a marathon and doing 12:30 maf, then finding it somewhat difficult to go 6 miles at a 10:00 pace, could it be your not warming up enough?? Just a thought. Also, I would think it's somewhat normal when coming off of 3 months of maf, where your body has adapted to slower paces. Abruptly going considerably faster could be troublesome. A structured marathon training plan should put you back in race mode. LG1 ....5 miles hills and dales today, at maf..natch
            ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
            Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
            ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)


            Slow-smooth-fast

              I am currently in my base building phase. There are a couple of races I have my eye on in March. I will finish my base training hopefully by then and then get in some tempos in time, see how it goes. I am in no hurry. So do you guys recommend that I start again with a new MAF of 152? What i dont get is that if i have not been doing it correctly how do you justify the following graph that represents my low hr training at maf 157 since i began? It must be working and I must be at the right MAF surely?

              "I've been following Eddy's improvement over the last two years on this site, and it's been pretty dang solid. Sure the weekly mileage has been up and down, but over the long haul he's getting out the door and has turned himself into quite a runner. He's only now just figuring out his potential. Consistency in running is measured in years, not weeks. And over the last couple of years, Eddy's made great strides" Jeff 14 Jan 2009

              Shiksa


                Ho hum... 4 mile treadmill run. 2% incline avg 138 max 154 (crap) mile 1 - 13:05 141/150 mile 2 - 13:02 143/154 mile 3 - 13:13 144/152 mile 4 - 14:30 142/146 Question: how long does it take to see some control? I only hit these spikes for a max od about 5-6 seconds, but it seems I have one at least every mile. This is only my second week of MAF training. Still waiting on my books from Amazon.

                Stacy
                I make no apologies for my liberal use of smiley icons. http://www.BlakeHillHouse.com

                  Question: how long does it take to see some control? I only hit these spikes for a max od about 5-6 seconds, but it seems I have one at least every mile. This is only my second week of MAF training. Still waiting on my books from Amazon.
                  In my experience, it took about 4-5 weeks before I could really run without the alarm sounding. Of course, it still goes off on hills every so often, but that's the nature of the beast.
                  Shiksa


                    In my experience, it took about 4-5 weeks before I could really run without the alarm sounding. Of course, it still goes off on hills every so often, but that's the nature of the beast.
                    Good to know. Thanks for answering. I'll go back to being blissfully normal then. Tongue

                    Stacy
                    I make no apologies for my liberal use of smiley icons. http://www.BlakeHillHouse.com

                    BeeRunB


                      I am starting to think this type of running is not helping me as much as I'd hoped. I have been doing all my runs under MAF (HR 130, age 50, MAF pace probably close to 12:30 or so on the track) for the last three months. Now it seems that I am completely comfortable running at MAF. But the last few days I've started to try for a little speed again, and it seems much more difficult for me to run faster than before I started MAFing. Before, my training runs were all done around 9:30 to 10:00 pace, and I ran my first marathon in October at average pace 9:30. (I was somewhat taking it easy during the race, because it was my first.) Now, when I try to run 6 miles at 10:00 pace, it feels like I'm hitting a wall! well, OK, not really a wall, but it definitely feels much harder than I recall. I can't understand how you all can do all of your long runs so slowly and then just break out at a fast pace for a real race. Is it due to the many years of MAF running you've been doing? Is it that you are actually athletes in disguise? I do feel the need at this point to change things somehow, because I'm starting my 18-week program for the second marathon, and I would really like to break 4 hours. Maybe it's time to give up on the MAF until after the race.
                      Are you finished with your aerobic base period? How long did you do it? Have you seen progress in that phase? Have you built up your volume and the length of your long runs? My experience with getting back to speed after the base phase is pretty much like yours. The fast twitch fibers have not been worked for awhile. It feels like your legs are full of lead. Temporary. After 3-4 weeks, doing just one LT run per week, or some fartlek, or some bursts, they wake up and I'm ready for racing, or more anaerobic work. If you have sen progress in the aerobic base phase, and built your volume and long runs, it will translate to better endurance in your races. But you do need to do some tempo runs before your races, or your races will end up being the fast-twitch wake-up. You don't think much has happened, but after 12-16 weeks of aerobic base work and progress, something has. That's my experience anyway. --Jimmy
                        How's lower leg doing, Doc? Back to normal?
                        Hey Jimmy. Yep, it's doing well, as are the sore feet. Thanks for checking up on me. Shy Everything is almost back to normal now that I have rotated new shoes. 375 to 400 miles is tops for me as far as shoe mileage goes. Maybe less if I don't have any newer pairs to rotate in. My HR is still high like yours Jimmy. I do feel a bit "tired", but nothing terrible. However, even on fresh legs my MAF pace is off about 15 to 20 seconds. It does seem to be coming around though. For me, it's usually very steady, regardless of how much I race, how fatigued my legs are, etc. About the only thing that is sure to crank up the HR is lack of hydration. I hate it when that happens!
                        BeeRunB


                          RHR back to normal today! Feel good. Celebrated by doing an LT interval session. TM 1% incline 67ยบ 58% humid 5 x .25 mile at ave. 7:52 pace HR 176-179 (88-90% MHR) with .25 mile rest in between at 13:20 pace ran in new Nike Free 5.0's I've been base-building for 7 months and want to start getting ready for a spring race season beginning in February thru the marathon in May. --Jimmy P.S. Good news Doc.
                          lowgear1


                          Max McMaffelow Esq.

                            No cover, 3 whine limit, Newbees preferred Questionmark & The Mysterians "96 Tears"....(Old School..circa 1966) {Interpreted by Lowgear1}... ...{In Aesop-style, Tortoise and Hare contest overnight ultra; Aerobic Tortoise vocalizes to Carefree Hare}... Too many teardrops for one heart to be cryin Too many teardrops for one heart to carry on You're way on top now since you left me You're always laughin way down at me But watch out now, I'm gonna get there We'll be together for just a little while And then I'm gonna put you way down here And you'll start cryin ninety-six tears Cry, cry And when the sun comes up, I'll be on top You'll be right down there, lookin up And I might wave, come up here But I don't see you wavin now I'm way down here, wonderin how I'm gonna get you but I know now I'll just cry, cry, Ill just cry Too many teardrops for one heart to be cryin Too many teardrops for one heart to carry on You're gonna cry ninety-six tears You're gonna cry ninety-six tears You're gonna cry, cry cry cry now You're gonna cry, cry, cry, cry Ninety-six tears C'mon and lemme hear you cry, now Ninety-six tears, I wanna hear you cry Night and day, yeah, all night long Uh-ninety-six tears, cry cry cry C'mon baby, let me hear you cry now, all night long Uh ninety-six tears, yeah c'mon now Uh-ninety-six tears LG1, ?? Slow & Steady wins the race!..karaoke, anyone ?? Dubya in Israel, Hillary sobbing profusely
                            ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
                            Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
                            ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
                            northernman


                            Fight The Future

                              Are you finished with your aerobic base period? How long did you do it? Have you seen progress in that phase? Have you built up your volume and the length of your long runs? My experience with getting back to speed after the base phase is pretty much like yours. The fast twitch fibers have not been worked for awhile. It feels like your legs are full of lead. Temporary. After 3-4 weeks, doing just one LT run per week, or some fartlek, or some bursts, they wake up and I'm ready for racing, or more anaerobic work. If you have sen progress in the aerobic base phase, and built your volume and long runs, it will translate to better endurance in your races. But you do need to do some tempo runs before your races, or your races will end up being the fast-twitch wake-up. You don't think much has happened, but after 12-16 weeks of aerobic base work and progress, something has. That's my experience anyway. --Jimmy
                              Yeah, I think you've hit it on the head. Feels like lead. I have actually seen some progress, with somewhat faster paces at low heart rates. But not wildly so. I think I went from around 14 minutes per mile to about 12:30 per mile at constant MAF. Could be that I never really got enough weekly mileage to be particularly successful. OK, thanks for the encouragement , I won't give up. But I will start doing more and more of the tempo runs, gradually. I'll keep my easy runs MAF-easy.
                                Tonight's Run: Distance: 7 Miles Total Time: 1:27:24 Avg Pace: 12:30/mile Avg HR: 142 (MAF-2) Max HR: 148 (MAF+4) Temp: 48 F Tonight was interesting, my first mile was an 11:47. From there, I slowed to the 12:30's and was as slow as 12:58 at the end of mile 5. But, then something weird happened. I felt like I hit my stride. My pace quickened to a 12:32 in mile 6 and a 12:18 in mile 7. There were a few more small hills the first 5 miles, but every hill I went up, I came back down, so I think that evens it out. Anyway, I wonder if maybe my mitochondria in my slow twitch muscle woke up? Not sure, but it sure was weird.