Thanks, Jimmy

Is there a race prediction chart  using  MAFF times?One that relates to people not running 10:00  or better.

Is there a race prediction chart  using  MAFF times?One that relates to people not running 10:00  or better.

 Clay,

I was just checking this out the other day. Jimmy posted it some time back.

Not sure about prediction charts for shorter distances as they relate to Maf, though.

 

jimmyb

posted: 2/20/2008 at 7:54 AM
modified: 2/20/2008 at 9:14 AM
Quote
This thread is to discuss predicting race pace based on different indicators, most importantly to this forum, MAF tests, and other ideas....

USING MAF TEST AS A MARATHON RACE PACE PREDICTOR.

On page 53 of Training for Endurance 2nd Revised Edition by Phil Maffetone ©2000. Maffetone gives a chart based on his" hundreds of tests and several racing seasons." I popped the 5k times on Maffetone's chart into the McMillan calculator and added the equivalent marathon times. I took the rate of slowing at MAF of 8:00-10:00 MAF pace on Maffetone's chart and figured up to 13:00. This could be way off, as if you notice on his chart there is a jump between 7-8:00 that increases twice the rate of slowing on most of the chart. I'm hoping your data can help out with all this. What I figured is separated from and above Maffetone's chart:

This may not be accurate, be careful, it may not be wise to use it to determine your pace for a marathon:

MAF....5k pace....5k time.....Marathon.....Mpace

13:00...9:00.........27:57..........4:32:29.......10:25
12:30...8:45.........27:11..........4:25:00.......10:07
12:00...8:30.........26:23..........4:17:12.........9:50
11:30...8:15.........25:37..........4:09:44.........9:32
11:00...8:00.........24:51..........4:02:15.........9:15
10:30..7:45..........24:04..........3:54:37.........8:58

10:00..7:30..........23:18..........3:47:09...........8:41
9:30....7:15..........22:31..........3:39:31...........8:23
9:00....7:00..........21:45..........3:32:02...........8:06
8:30....6:45..........20:58..........3:24:24...........7:49
8:00....6:30..........20:12..........3:16:55...........7:31
7:30....6:00..........18:38..........3:01:39...........6:56
7:00....5:30..........17:05..........2:46:32...........6:22
6:30....5:15..........16:19..........2:39:04...........6:05
6:00....5:00..........15:32..........2:31:26...........5:47
5:45....4:45..........14:45..........2:23:48...........5:30
5:30....4:30..........13:59..........2:16:19...........5:12
5:15....4:20..........13:28..........2:11:17...........5:01
5:00....4:15..........13:12....... ..2:08:41...........4:55

MY TIMES AND MAF TESTS
Using MAF of 180-age +5 beats
Marathon.................time.........pace....best MAF test near the marathon
Sugarloaf 2006......3:30:36.......8:02................8:57
Philly 2006............3:22:10.......7:43................8:31


Pretty close, I beat the predictor by aprox 1:30-2:00 minutes each time. I did these MAF tests on a treadmill in 65-70ºF with a 1% incline, and on tired legs. Perhaps, I could have done the tests faster in a cooler room, no incline, and rested. So, perhaps Maffetone and his chart can be used as an indicator. I'll have to get more data as I go.

If anyone has any data to add to this thread, please share. It would be interesting to see how your data matches up with Maffetone's chart, and my addition to it.

--Jimmy

 

Thank you!

Same fibers, but same fuel too.

 

Is it kind of like a sliding percentage though?

The lower the LHR the better, meaning burning at least less sugar/more fat at Lower LHR than higher HR? 

I would think so, but maybe I should flat out ask this too.

 

 

 

I highly recommend that you read some of Dr. Phil Maffetone's books. MAF training is all based on the respiratory quotient (RQ). Training For Endurance and The High Performance Heart both have information on how he came about the 180-age formula. Below is a link to an excerpt from one of his books, Complimentary sports medicine:

 

Click here

 

The closer you get to your MHR, the more sugar you burn. The closer you get to resting, the less. Although some people are so out of whack they have a sugar-burning metabolism at rest. Dr. Phil dispenses with the old definitions of aerobic and anaerobic, which were based on microbial life. Microbes that could exist without oxygen were anaerobic.

His definitions in basic are the more sugar you burn, the more anaerobic you are becoming. The more fat, the more aerobic. There is a HR in the  RQ test where you are burning 50% fat/50% sugar. The MAF is just below this point. The formula aproximates this point. Normally, people who havent exercised much will have a lower MAF than the 180-age, and thus the 5-10 beat adjustments. Elite or highly trained, healthy athletes will have a higher one, thus the 5 beats extra for that. The key word being "healthy" (not overtrained, not injured, not a walking collection of sore spots).

 

This thread discusses it.

 

There is a case study in The Maffetone Method (good book to get) that talks about a woman who had to walk everything to stay at MAF. Eventually, she couldn't walk fast enough to stay at her MAF, so she started running at that point. Because she had developed her aerobic system with the walking, she was able to start running at a decent pace and stay at her MAF, and within a year was running 11:00 miles at MAF. Within another 6 months she was down to 9:15 at MAF. I mention this because I know you are in that walk/run stage in your development. Walking will help your running. I'm sure this case was not the only time Dr. Phil saw this walking to running transition. When I started running, before I knew anything about anything, I had already been walking fast for several years. I took to running, and did my first race 4 months later, and managed a 7:51 pace in a 4-miler (225th place of 441 runners) on about 10-20 miles tops per week. Not bad for a 42 year-old beginner. My aerobic system had already been developed somewhat through the walking.

 

Check it out, Frances. Keep going!!

--Jimmy

Good reminder post Jimmy. Did you ever get that RQ test you mentioned a few months past? If so do you mind sharing the results? Did they fall in line with what you were seeing during training?

 

Easy run today (AHR<143). A bit warm and humid. 7.5 at 1:02:15 or 8:20 pace. AHR was 140 Based on my last MAF test results, the temp and humidity added 2 BPM with a reduction in avg pace by 8 seconds. I'm going to attempt to keep track of this data moving forward and see if it correlates to anything.

 

5k race tomorrow for me. Hope everyone has some great runs this weekend. Cheers.

 

The only tests I've gotten since I posted that wish are ones of my patience,  mental stamina, and whether or not my high-fiberous man-flops would compliment the county-mandated low-flow toilets here in Atlanta. The results are: yes I have a lot of patience, yes I have a lot of mental stamina, and no we are not a match and, as I have experienced in the past, these are actually 3-flush low-flow toilets. No water saving as suspected.

 

I'd like to get that test still and will be looking for a place to test in Atlanta.

 

--Jimmy

 That's classic. BTW - do you know how to get soda stains off a monitor. I just snorted some on mine when I read this.

 

Good luck finding a place for the test and better wishes in managing the beauty and elegance of low flow loos. Momentum flushes seem to solve the problem.

68 F    78 H    61 DP
Today, a 6.8 mile walk over a hilly route. It included 2 brief stops.
I'm looking forward to tomorrow's run over a route that I previewed last week. I intend to put in 5 miles.
It features your typical "real world" hills, etc. I'd like to make it a recurring event to guage Maf progress.
(I'd rather do a "moon walk" on a glass enclosed viewing platform from the 103rd  floor, over looking Chicago, than do a legitimate Maf test!)  
lg

Thanks for the links Jimmy.  I eventually found myself in those old coolrunning threads.  Just some great discussions and information from those days.  I could read those for hours.

 

Todays run:

8.3 miles

AveHR: 125

pace: 11:34

 

This is about my fifth week of base MAF running.  Trying to maintain 25 miles per week.  So far, so good.  This long run felt easier than my last ones.  I think it was because I really made an effort to keep the HR really low for the first part and then let it rise gradually.