Low HR Training

"Expose Your Slow Twitchers" Daily Maffetone and/or Low-HR Training Reports (Read 20600 times)

gregw


    Following myself up.  I was looking at my logs and saw this when I was in Florida a couple of weeks ago.

     

    Time    Distance    Split pace    Avg. HR
    0:09:01    1.00    9:01    160 (80%)
    0:17:30    2.00    8:29    131 (65%)
    0:25:48    3.00    8:19    135 (67%)
    0:34:02    4.00    8:14    140 (70%)
    0:42:13    5.00    8:11    141 (71%)
    0:50:25    6.00    8:13    143 (71%)
    0:58:32    6.99    8:09    142 (71%)
    1:06:29    7.99    7:56    145 (72%)
    1:06:32    8.00    9:16    126 (63%)
    
    This was recorded with my Garmin and run outside in 28 degree weather (I went to FL for that?). Terrain was basically flat with a couple of bumps.  The middle part is basically a MAF test HR (mine's 142).  Seems I was much faster down there.  For some reason, I'm always slower on the treadmill.  Maybe it's the heat build up.

      bob- 1/2 marathon pace on a training run. WTG.

       

      gregw- according to jimmyb MAF test on a treadmill is better. The conditions are controllable.

       

      jimmy- the knees are like our cat. they have a mind of their own. Only on race day will I have any clue as to what they will do.

      Run until the trail runs out.

      2012**Run 40 miles week

      50 miler**100 miler

       PR 5K**10K**26.2

      http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

        6 miles. Forget to restart watch. Hr was avging 118 @ 13:45 pace.Nice recovery run. 28 F.

        Run until the trail runs out.

        2012**Run 40 miles week

        50 miler**100 miler

         PR 5K**10K**26.2

        http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

          7.5 easy today 1:10 and change AHR 121.

           

          greg - clay and jimmy's advice on MAF test with treadmill are spot on. Best to keep conditions as controlled as possible to get a real gauge. Doing it otherwise adds to many potential variables which can cloud the information.


          "He conquers who endures" - Persius
          "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel
          labhiker


            11.5 miles this morning, very controlled sub-MAF run.  Several good hill climbs.  12:48ave @ 126 bpm (MAF-6). 

            Started at MAF-14 for a solid 35 minutes, then climbed towards MAF-5 for next 45minutes up several long hills and finally towards MAF for the last 2-3miles.  

            Saw some decent speed on a few downhills, momentary 8:53 @ 130bpm

             

            Legs were very sore for the first 6 miles.  Decided to cheat yesterday and threw in a weekly pace run.  Ran 8 miles with a friend at 9:20 pace.

            labhiker

              I got another run today on a different course, it's flat-ish, well, mostly.

               

              1C / 34 F, little wind, warmup walking for 14-15 min. here one thing is funny: the 13 mins of real warmup was a pace FASTER (8:08) than my running afterwards, and this at an average HR of 128 (MAF-25). it is always like that for now... sigh. sigh because it means my aerobic conditioning for walking is excellent but not for running yet...

               

              as for my running, around 4.6 miles, 61 mins, average HR 151, average pace 13:20, this was continuous running with basically constant slow down. yeaaah, feels like proper running!

               

              so this workout concludes my first real MAF week, 6 workouts (in heavier-easier-heavier-easier cycles), 27 miles total, 6.5 hours spent with it excluding the warmup times. I will keep monday as a rest day for now. the rest day is to be on the safe side and to give my legs extra rest from the weird slow pace.

               

              results so far?

              1) I feel this was no heavy load at all, this feels very good, and my "resting-walking around in house" HR has come down to low ranges too!! low just like it was before I managed to slightly overreach with my previous training. except I feel totally like I didn't do any exercising the entire week. I wasn't exactly tired before with the previous training either, but this is a different level. Smile

              2) seems pace already improved a bit, actually still not as good as I was capable of before but this feels just about maintainable, not ungodly slow.

                28F/ 2 C  yesterday. Ruan after work today. 70F/21C

                 

                 

                8/2010 4:36 PM
                Type: moderate
                Distance: 7.03 miles
                Duration: 1:42:12.32
                Pace: 14:33 / mile
                Weight: 161 lb
                Heart Rate: Rest: 56 / Average: 118 / Max: 127
                Weather: 70° F

                Run until the trail runs out.

                2012**Run 40 miles week

                50 miler**100 miler

                 PR 5K**10K**26.2

                http://bkclay.blogspot.com/


                Decker Challenge 12/12

                  had a good maf test this morning. Doesn't seem like the new meds affected target hr. In fact big improvement in pace from last month 11:21 avg pace over 4mi, vs 12:08 over 2mi! the 11:21 pace was faster than Oct '09 5k pb of 11:38!

                  So why were training runs a struggle and the half so ugly? I'm thinking for training, stress, fatigue, mental over analysis. For the race - mental crash after realizing I was not following my plan and got head buried in butt instead of thinking thru corrective actions. Will continue to monitor to verify.

                  I warmed up by walking 1/2 mi then jogging for 1 1/2 mi, took quick bio break, couple of slugs of G2 gatorade, and started 4 mi maf test summarized below
                  Pace    AHR   MHR    
                  1 Mi    11:01    106    111    maf 1
                  1 Mi    11:21    109    112    maf 2
                  1 Mi    11:32    107    111    maf 3
                  1 Mi    11:32    106    112    maf 4

                  very encouraging and 40 sec better than last test. The table below shows the results of maf tests since early Dec. Note the regression from running to slowly (maf-10 alternating with maf-20 days), and the improvement when I switched to mostly maf-5 to maf range of running.
                  <col width="86" style="width: 65pt;" /> <col width="64" style="width: 48pt;" /> <col width="64" span="2" style="width: 48pt;" />
                  date Avg Maf Avg HR MHR
                  3/9/2010 11:21 107 112
                  2/8/2010 12:08 108 111
                  2/3/2010 12:00 108 115
                  1/19/2010 12:31 109 115
                  1/5/2010 13:09 107 112
                  12/10/2009 12:54 107 111

                  bob e v
                  2012 goals: keep on running! Is there anything more than that?

                  Finish 2 halves, 3M Half 1/29 and probably Decker Challenge in Dec
                  history: blessed heart attack 3/15/2008; c25k july 2008 first 5k 10/26/2008, 62nd birthday; 1st 10k 2/28/2009 - 50 wks from heart attack to 10k; 1st Half Marathon 11/9/09 20 months from heart attack! !

                    bobev: very nice. Smile I'm curious, can I ask one question? how is it possible that the 5k pb was 11:38 pace but the MAF pace was only slightly worse (i.e. 12:54)? I have a much bigger difference between my 5k pace and my MAF (my MAF pace around 13:30-14:30, my 5k pace around 8:00 or perhaps a bit better than that but I have not tested it in a while). don't know what it means in your case.

                     

                    it's also very interesting to see it helped you to increase from MAF-10 to MAF-5. (I'm doing MAF-2 currently, as average HR, and try to not go higher than MAF-1, so very rarely MAF or MAF+1.) so now I'll just have to hope my MAF is correctly guessed. the only one thing I am sure about is it is definitely below 160 by a few beats... I can tell that from comparing the feeling from the workouts&weeks I've been doing

                     

                    that leads to another question, for you (bobev, anyone) do you feel that as soon as you go as low as MAF the (over several days) workout load decreases by a big difference - I don't mean perceived exertion just mean general feeling/well-being/being a LOT less stressed? curious if that could help people like bobev find their MAF. Wink

                      bobev: very nice. Smile I'm curious, can I ask one question? how is it possible that the 5k pb was 11:38 pace but the MAF pace was only slightly worse (i.e. 12:54)? I have a much bigger difference between my 5k pace and my MAF (my MAF pace around 13:30-14:30, my 5k pace around 8:00 or perhaps a bit better than that but I have not tested it in a while). don't know what it means in your case.

                       

                      it's also very interesting to see it helped you to increase from MAF-10 to MAF-5. (I'm doing MAF-2 currently, as average HR, and try to not go higher than MAF-1, so very rarely MAF or MAF+1.) so now I'll just have to hope my MAF is correctly guessed. the only one thing I am sure about is it is definitely below 160 by a few beats... I can tell that from comparing the feeling from the workouts&weeks I've been doing

                       

                      that leads to another question, for you (bobev, anyone) do you feel that as soon as you go as low as MAF the (over several days) workout load decreases by a big difference - I don't mean perceived exertion just mean general feeling/well-being/being a LOT less stressed? curious if that could help people like bobev find their MAF. Wink

                      jimmyb has a stress load chart on his website you may want to try.

                      Run until the trail runs out.

                      2012**Run 40 miles week

                      50 miler**100 miler

                       PR 5K**10K**26.2

                      http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                        5 miles.  HR 116/127. Maff(126)

                        Run until the trail runs out.

                        2012**Run 40 miles week

                        50 miler**100 miler

                         PR 5K**10K**26.2

                        http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                          Jimmy's stress load spreadsheet is great. You would find it usefull Bob.

                           

                          Nice easy lunch run enjoying the high 50s and sunshine here. 7.2 miles 1 hr. MHR 143 AHR 139


                          "He conquers who endures" - Persius
                          "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

                            jimmyb has a stress load chart on his website you may want to try.

                             

                            thanks, do you have a link to it? I went on http://www.jimmybrunelle.com and found nothing related to this stress load chart, sorry I must be blind Sad

                              Not blind. It is in the overtraining sticky in the boilerplate threads.

                              "He conquers who endures" - Persius
                              "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel


                              Decker Challenge 12/12

                                bobev: very nice. Smile I'm curious, can I ask one question? how is it possible that the 5k pb was 11:38 pace but the MAF pace was only slightly worse (i.e. 12:54)? I have a much bigger difference between my 5k pace and my MAF (my MAF pace around 13:30-14:30, my 5k pace around 8:00 or perhaps a bit better than that but I have not tested it in a while). don't know what it means in your case.

                                 

                                it's also very interesting to see it helped you to increase from MAF-10 to MAF-5. (I'm doing MAF-2 currently, as average HR, and try to not go higher than MAF-1, so very rarely MAF or MAF+1.) so now I'll just have to hope my MAF is correctly guessed. the only one thing I am sure about is it is definitely below 160 by a few beats... I can tell that from comparing the feeling from the workouts&weeks I've been doing

                                 

                                that leads to another question, for you (bobev, anyone) do you feel that as soon as you go as low as MAF the (over several days) workout load decreases by a big difference - I don't mean perceived exertion just mean general feeling/well-being/being a LOT less stressed? curious if that could help people like bobev find their MAF. Wink

                                 Basically, I am running faster at a lower heart rate now than I did in Oct when I ran the 5k race. I started lhr approach in earnest in late Nov. Also, my maf is probably a higher percentage of max hr than most people. Measured max is 137, although it could be as high as 140 but we never got that far. So maf of 107 is about 77-78% of max, 112 would be 80-82% of max.

                                 

                                My maf pace started to increase when I was running at to low an hr. Somewhere in this thread is Jimmy's commentary pointing out that I needed to be running closer to maf, and possibly at a higher maf. Now I do most runs with hr at 102-107 after 2 mi warm up. I try to get at least 1/2 mi or so at maf during those runs as well. Easy and long run days are at 97-102 - and I've noticed that pace is increasing as well.

                                 

                                For me running at maf hr is not that easy, but I have been able to extend it to 4mi runs @maf during maf tests. One of these days, I'll push to 5 mi to see if I can maintain it.

                                 

                                Bottom line - we are all experiments of 1. Pick an initial maf to run at. Perform maf tests every 3 or 4 weeks and see if there is progress, e.g. pace increases. If not, bump maf by 5, etc. until improvement happens. The more I run at near maff the easier it is beginning to feel - and at a faster pace.

                                 

                                hth

                                bob e v
                                2012 goals: keep on running! Is there anything more than that?

                                Finish 2 halves, 3M Half 1/29 and probably Decker Challenge in Dec
                                history: blessed heart attack 3/15/2008; c25k july 2008 first 5k 10/26/2008, 62nd birthday; 1st 10k 2/28/2009 - 50 wks from heart attack to 10k; 1st Half Marathon 11/9/09 20 months from heart attack! !