Low HR Training

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Maffetone method and losing weight (Read 1579 times)

TimButterfield


    I saw a post on another forum to the effect that losing weight increases VO2max and that a higher VO2max would have a lower HR for a given level of effort.  That leaves me in a quandary regarding low HR training.  I still have fifty-five pounds to lose and am trying to stick to a 1200-1500 calorie/day diet.  When keeping strictly to the lower MAF HR, I don't lose weight as quickly if at all. If losing weight can increase VO2max, might it may be better to let my HR rise more in the short term as it would let me lose weight faster and become more efficient more quickly?  Any thoughts on this?  Thanks.


    Tim


    jimmyb


    port-a-bella-potty

      I saw a post on another forum to the effect that losing weight increases VO2max and that a higher VO2max would have a lower HR for a given level of effort.  That leaves me in a quandary regarding low HR training.  I still have fifty-five pounds to lose and am trying to stick to a 1200-1500 calorie/day diet.  When keeping strictly to the lower MAF HR, I don't lose weight as quickly if at all. If losing weight can increase VO2max, might it may be better to let my HR rise more in the short term as it would let me lose weight faster and become more efficient more quickly?  Any thoughts on this?  Thanks.


      Tim


       

       

      Losing weight does help your V02max--the lighter you are, the less workload at the same HR.  The quandary you in is that you are 55 pounds overweight, and it needs to come off, but you have to watch your training load; make sure you don't overdo it. You have to find your balance, whatever it is. There's never anything wrong with experimenting.

       

      You are keeping a very low calorie diet. Sometimes, the more you workout your body will hang on to its fat if the calorie restriction is too low, and eat up the muscle. The setpoint gets lower. I have found success with figuring out my basal metabolic rate, then adding caloric needs for exercise then subtracting 500. About a pound of fat per week. I am 49 years old, with a basal rate of about 1800-1900, and exercise needs of about 700+ a day on average. When trying to lose weight, I keep my calories between 2000-2300, and will lose about a pound a week. I do best with a 55% carb, 30% fat, 15% protein mix. I've tried 40/30/30, but I found a regression in performance each time I tried. Most likely from glycogen depletion.

       

      Make sure you measure your body fat indicators (waist and wrist) and keep track of your body fat. You might find that you are losing body fat but gaining muscle mass.

       

      I was just about to start a thread on weight loss. As i need to drop at least 20 myself. I've lost 3 thus far.

       

      If you decide to bring in higher heart rates, do it for training purposes, not losing weight. It could lead you into working out too hard most of the time. If you decided on a 12-16 week base period, stick to it, then bring in some harder stuff in order to get a training effect. Be careful, once a week is enough generally. Monitor your load, and your MAF tests.

       

      Good luck!

      --Jimmy

      Log    PRs

        Tim, if your log is correct and up to date, I'd suggest running more miles or minutes, which ever you choose.

         

        I have lost over 60 pounds since last July and have been running mainly at my calculated MAF HR of 140. I didn't count calories but I did and do limit my intake of carbohydrates. I find that I am a bit intolerant to high glycemic count carbohydrates. I don't count my carbs either, just skip the fries, potatoes and white breads.

         

        You don't have your height listed but I can see your weight. I would say that 1200 - 1500 calories may not be enough for you and you may be putting your metabolism into a "starvation" survival mode. That happens when your caloric intake is too low.

         

        Here is a good calorie intake calculator. Input your vitals and see what it recommends for your maintenance, weight loss and extreme weight loss calorie needs. For me, at 5'8" and 199 pounds, I need 2900 calories a day to maintain my weight.

         

        The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

         

        2014 Goals:

         

        Stay healthy

        Enjoy life

         

        TimButterfield


          Thanks for the feedback.


          I've been doing MAF for about five months and losing 1-2 pounds/month.  Last year, during my C25K, I lost 6-8 pounds/month.  Average HR for the last mile of my 48 minute C25K graduation run was 163 bpm.  Average HR for the lat mile of a one hour run a week later was 165 bpm.  My MAF number is 135.


          Just calculated:  My BMR is just over 1900.  An hour of MAF exercise is from 300 to 550 calories, so 900-1650/week.  That's 130-235/day.  It seems I should be losing more than I am.  Perhaps I need to consult the cook about those numbers (and make sure I avoid Starbucks).  Wink


          Another aspect of this is running ability.  Last year, after C25K, I ran a slow four miles in an hour, but it was all running.  After walking for five months to keep under MAF, I find it difficult to run half a mile even if I let HR go above MAF.  My walking muscles are better, but my running muscles are worse.  The zone calculations of an endurancefactor.com article on LT training has my zone 2 at 130-150 bpm.  I'm thinking that if I use a 150 max, it would still be well under my (possible) 165 bpm LT (from last mile of one hour run).  It should let me both rebuild my running muscles (run more before stopping due to HR limit)  and lose weight a little more quickly without getting too far away from MAF.  As I exercise three times a week, this shouldn't be overdoing it.  Also, I check my HR before getting out of bed each morning and can see if I need to take it easy.  For example, it was up for a several days and was back down 12 bpm this morning.  I think I was fighting off a little cold internally, though I only had a few sniffles.  It's interesting how HR is affected by something with so few external signs.


          As I do not have competitive goals, my primary concern is not to be unhealthy.  Losing weight more quickly might be preferred over aerobic base building.  If I'm not carrying that 55 lbs 24x7, everything is more efficient.  I'll need to experiment to find the right balance between the two and keep a better eye on the calories.


          Thanks again.


          Tim


          TimButterfield


            Tim, if your log is correct and up to date, I'd suggest running more miles or minutes, which ever you choose.

             

            I have lost over 60 pounds since last July and have been running mainly at my calculated MAF HR of 140. I didn't count calories but I did and do limit my intake of carbohydrates. I find that I am a bit intolerant to high glycemic count carbohydrates. I don't count my carbs either, just skip the fries, potatoes and white breads.

             

            You don't have your height listed but I can see your weight. I would say that 1200 - 1500 calories may not be enough for you and you may be putting your metabolism into a "starvation" survival mode. That happens when your caloric intake is too low.

             

            Here is a good calorie intake calculator. Input your vitals and see what it recommends for your maintenance, weight loss and extreme weight loss calorie needs. For me, at 5'8" and 199 pounds, I need 2900 calories a day to maintain my weight.

             Good points.  Thanks.  I'm trying to avoid high-carb items also.  My height is 5'10" and I'm 45.  Using http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/ I have BMR of just over 1900.

            I can't run at MAF yet, only some running and mostly walking.  I'm mostly limited by schedule.  This week, instead of exercising, I'm building some raised beds for gardening so we can eat healthier this summer.

               Good points.  Thanks.  I'm trying to avoid high-carb items also.  My height is 5'10" and I'm 45.  Using http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/ I have BMR of just over 1900.

               

              I can't run at MAF yet, only some running and mostly walking.  I'm mostly limited by schedule.  This week, instead of exercising, I'm building some raised beds for gardening so we can eat healthier this summer.

               

              Do you have a bike available to you? Running is a weight bearing activity and that has alot to do with how fast the heart has to pump. Riding a bike is somewhat of a weight bearing activity, but not as much as walking or running is. Anyway, if you can get on a bike, you will find that you can bike faster and longer while staying at or below you MAF HR to help you build up your aerobic system, your overall endurance and lose weight. After you start building up your aerobic system, you will find that you can take the endurance you've gained on the bike and apply it to your running.

               

              The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

               

              2014 Goals:

               

              Stay healthy

              Enjoy life

               

              gregw


                I can't run at MAF yet, only some running and mostly walking.  I'm mostly limited by schedule.  This week, instead of exercising, I'm building some raised beds for gardening so we can eat healthier this summer.

                 

                I'll be a heretic.  If your schedule limits you to the 2-3 hours you've been running, going slower in those 2-3 hours isn't going to improve your running or help you lose weight.  Just burn as many kcals as you can without getting injured or feeling "fried."  There are probably ways to improve on that as well (strength training?  High intensity intervals?) that would help you burn calories while not running.  With only 2-3 hours, diet is really where you're going to have to look to lose weight.

                TimButterfield


                   

                  Do you have a bike available to you? Running is a weight bearing activity and that has alot to do with how fast the heart has to pump. Riding a bike is somewhat of a weight bearing activity, but not as much as walking or running is. Anyway, if you can get on a bike, you will find that you can bike faster and longer while staying at or below you MAF HR to help you build up your aerobic system, your overall endurance and lose weight. After you start building up your aerobic system, you will find that you can take the endurance you've gained on the bike and apply it to your running.

                   Yes.  I have an old road bike on a training stand.  I used that to cross-train some during winter.  With the HRM right in front of me, it was great for exercising right at MAF.

                  TimButterfield


                      

                    I'll be a heretic.  If your schedule limits you to the 2-3 hours you've been running, going slower in those 2-3 hours isn't going to improve your running or help you lose weight.  Just burn as many kcals as you can without getting injured or feeling "fried."  There are probably ways to improve on that as well (strength training?  High intensity intervals?) that would help you burn calories while not running.  With only 2-3 hours, diet is really where you're going to have to look to lose weight.

                    That's what I need, permission. Smile

                    Though I have no competitive goals, I do have the long term goal of running ultras.  I'm just trying to find the most efficient (time-wise) way to get from where I am to being able to run a 50k and finish before event cut-off.  I think this needs to be a combination of weight loss, aerobic base building, and speed building.  I initially thought I could do it strictly with MAF workouts, but five months of walking hasn't helped my running.  I would like to reach a 50k ability more quickly than my current rate of advancement.  I would prefer to be building my running muscles (tone, capillary growth, etc.) instead of my walking muscles.  It seems an entirely different set of muscles has been developed.  I suspect biking is different still.

                    I think I need to modify my training schedule to improve my running ability more quickly.  What I think this will require is:

                    1. prioritize losing weight over (but not eliminating) aerobic base building
                    2. develop running muscles instead of walking muscles (run more, even with a somewhat higher HR)
                    3. vary running workouts to build speed (mix easy, tempo, etc.)
                    4. after stabilizing new training regimen, gradually increase training duration (as I can modify schedule)
                    5. then, add some low weight/hi-rep weight training to involve more muscle mass in fat burning (just for tone, not for bulk)
                    6. then, add back some biking

                    With loss of weight, #2 can be done at lower and lower HR, slow running instead of fast walking at a lower HR.  I had heard of a way to do #3 by having a factor for each type/duration of workout and limiting that total per week.  Increasing that total (along with #4) will let me build duration (also, longer easy run per week).  #5 and #6 will help to burn fat more when not exercising.


                    Does this seem like a good approach?

                    jimmyb


                    port-a-bella-potty

                        

                      That's what I need, permission. Smile

                      Though I have no competitive goals, I do have the long term goal of running ultras.  I'm just trying to find the most efficient (time-wise) way to get from where I am to being able to run a 50k and finish before event cut-off.  I think this needs to be a combination of weight loss, aerobic base building, and speed building.  I initially thought I could do it strictly with MAF workouts, but five months of walking hasn't helped my running.  I would like to reach a 50k ability more quickly than my current rate of advancement.  I would prefer to be building my running muscles (tone, capillary growth, etc.) instead of my walking muscles.  It seems an entirely different set of muscles has been developed.  I suspect biking is different still.

                      I think I need to modify my training schedule to improve my running ability more quickly.  What I think this will require is:

                      1. prioritize losing weight over (but not eliminating) aerobic base building
                      2. develop running muscles instead of walking muscles (run more, even with a somewhat higher HR)
                      3. vary running workouts to build speed (mix easy, tempo, etc.)
                      4. after stabilizing new training regimen, gradually increase training duration (as I can modify schedule)
                      5. then, add some low weight/hi-rep weight training to involve more muscle mass in fat burning (just for tone, not for bulk)
                      6. then, add back some biking

                      With loss of weight, #2 can be done at lower and lower HR, slow running instead of fast walking at a lower HR.  I had heard of a way to do #3 by having a factor for each type/duration of workout and limiting that total per week.  Increasing that total (along with #4) will let me build duration (also, longer easy run per week).  #5 and #6 will help to burn fat more when not exercising.


                      Does this seem like a good approach?

                       

                       

                      When you can run without walking AND be able to stay under your MAF, and you've built some aerobic speed, then yes, adding speedwork probably wouldn't hurt. You can only lose 1-1.5 pounds of fat per week tops. You're looking at 36-55 weeks before you can lose all the weight. That's a brief amount of time in a running career. By the time that 9-12 months is over, you'll be flying at MAF, and more than likely be healthy, without injury Walking will help your running and your aerobic base. Especially long walks. For awhile, I've maintained the opinion that if you can't run and stay under your MAF for the entire run, then aerobic walking would be more advisable. I've been on these forums for a long time and I've seen many overweight beginners not make it very long before they get injured and quit, because they couldn't think long term. That 55 pounds is a lot of extra stress. Take it or leave it of course. Whatever you choose to do, do regular MAF tests and keep posting what happens!

                       

                      --Jimmy The Walrus

                      Log    PRs


                      Beginner all over again

                        Hi Tim,

                         

                        I am in my Week #2 of LHR training, walking an awful lot.......

                         

                        What I am doing is using my Garmin Forerunner 305

                        and manually pressing the Lap button every time I need to change from Walk-to-Jog and Jog-to-Walk.

                        This tells me how long each  segment (Lap)  is, Jog and Walk.

                         

                        Over  the weeks and months,  I'm going to be watching for a trend toward longer Jog-segments and fewer and shorter Walk-segments, while staying at MAF.  I'm hoping the Lap-duration feature will encourage me to stay at MAF if I am seeing some progress there.

                         

                        I'm still at the point where I am amazed anyone can Actually Jog, continue jogging, and still remain at MAF

                        Do you have a Garmin Forerunner 305?

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                        gregw


                            

                          Though I have no competitive goals, I do have the long term goal of running ultras.  I'm just trying to find the most efficient (time-wise) way to get from where I am to being able to run a 50k and finish before event cut-off.  I think this needs to be a combination of weight loss, aerobic base building, and speed building.  I initially thought I could do it strictly with MAF workouts, but five months of walking hasn't helped my running.  I would like to reach a 50k ability more quickly than my current rate of advancement.  I would prefer to be building my running muscles (tone, capillary growth, etc.) instead of my walking muscles.  It seems an entirely different set of muscles has been developed.  I suspect biking is different still.

                          I think I need to modify my training schedule to improve my running ability more quickly.  What I think this will require is:

                          1. prioritize losing weight over (but not eliminating) aerobic base building
                          2. develop running muscles instead of walking muscles (run more, even with a somewhat higher HR)
                          3. vary running workouts to build speed (mix easy, tempo, etc.)
                          4. after stabilizing new training regimen, gradually increase training duration (as I can modify schedule)
                          5. then, add some low weight/hi-rep weight training to involve more muscle mass in fat burning (just for tone, not for bulk)
                          6. then, add back some biking

                          With loss of weight, #2 can be done at lower and lower HR, slow running instead of fast walking at a lower HR.  I had heard of a way to do #3 by having a factor for each type/duration of workout and limiting that total per week.  Increasing that total (along with #4) will let me build duration (also, longer easy run per week).  #5 and #6 will help to burn fat more when not exercising.


                          Does this seem like a good approach?

                           

                          I'm so lost.  Your schedule-limited and are now running 2-3 hrs a week, but you want to run a 50k?  Does not compute.  I also don't think I'd go after speed then duration, especially for a 50k.  Also why would you lose weight before building a base when building a base will help you lose weight (by burning calories)?  Personally, I think I'd advise a person to go after frequency, duration, and then intensity in that order.  Run or walk as frequently as your schedule allows and you can recover from.  Then add on time as your schedule and body permit.  And then look to add some intensity to a run a week and then maybe two.  Using the HRM to keep the intensity low is a good way to keep yourself from getting hurt.  Take it for what it's worth.

                          TimButterfield


                             I'm so lost.  Your schedule-limited and are now running 2-3 hrs a week, but you want to run a 50k?  Does not compute.  I also don't think I'd go after speed then duration, especially for a 50k.  Also why would you lose weight before building a base when building a base will help you lose weight (by burning calories)?  Personally, I think I'd advise a person to go after frequency, duration, and then intensity in that order.  Run or walk as frequently as your schedule allows and you can recover from.  Then add on time as your schedule and body permit.  And then look to add some intensity to a run a week and then maybe two.  Using the HRM to keep the intensity low is a good way to keep yourself from getting hurt.  Take it for what it's worth.

                             My run pace is currently about 15:00/mi, a little faster if I push it.  As I lose weight and gain fitness, this will improve.  As it improves, I will be running further in the same amount of workout time.  Item #4 was increasing duration, further adding mileage.  Being able to run a 50k is a goal I would like to reach next year, long term, not short term.  I'm just trying to determine the most time efficient way to get there.  Thanks for the feedback.

                            TimButterfield


                              Hi Tim,

                               

                              I am in my Week #2 of LHR training, walking an awful lot.......

                               

                              What I am doing is using my Garmin Forerunner 305

                              and manually pressing the Lap button every time I need to change from Walk-to-Jog and Jog-to-Walk.

                              This tells me how long each  segment (Lap)  is, Jog and Walk.

                               

                              Over  the weeks and months,  I'm going to be watching for a trend toward longer Jog-segments and fewer and shorter Walk-segments, while staying at MAF.  I'm hoping the Lap-duration feature will encourage me to stay at MAF if I am seeing some progress there.

                               

                              I'm still at the point where I am amazed anyone can Actually Jog, continue jogging, and still remain at MAF

                              Do you have a Garmin Forerunner 305? 

                              Yep.  For the first four months, I could exceed MAF just by walking for an hour, sometimes sooner.  Eventually, I could add a very brief run before I had to resume walking.  I use a Garmin 405CX.  I haven't tracked individual walk/run segments, just splitting out the warm-up and cool-down.

                              TimButterfield


                                When you can run without walking AND be able to stay under your MAF, and you've built some aerobic speed, then yes, adding speedwork probably wouldn't hurt. You can only lose 1-1.5 pounds of fat per week tops. You're looking at 36-55 weeks before you can lose all the weight. That's a brief amount of time in a running career. By the time that 9-12 months is over, you'll be flying at MAF, and more than likely be healthy, without injury Walking will help your running and your aerobic base. Especially long walks. For awhile, I've maintained the opinion that if you can't run and stay under your MAF for the entire run, then aerobic walking would be more advisable. I've been on these forums for a long time and I've seen many overweight beginners not make it very long before they get injured and quit, because they couldn't think long term. That 55 pounds is a lot of extra stress. Take it or leave it of course. Whatever you choose to do, do regular MAF tests and keep posting what happens!

                                 

                                --Jimmy The Walrus

                                I don't have a problem with long term goals.  When I first started running late last spring, I set a goal of being able to do a 50k within two years.  I've got a bit more than a year left.  I would like to make that timeline, but it's not critical.  I wasn't aware of the weight loss limit.  The most I have walked so far lately is a bit over six miles.  A brief early run segment exceeded MAF, but the rest was walking mostly just under MAF.  I'm guessing your recommendation would be the same as greg, increase frequency first and then duration, all at MAF.  Thanks.

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