Low HR Training

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Race during base period... (Read 855 times)

jdazzle


    All -

     

    I have decided to try out this method, but I have already signed up for two races (half and a 10 miler) about 8 weeks into the program.  Will this have a serious setback to my basebuilding?  I am planning on continuing the basebuilding methods as long as I still see impovement even after these races...  Just paranoid I guess...

    jimmyb


      Depends. You might see a decline in MAF pace, but then again, after 8 weeks you might see a boost. You can make some aerobic progress in 8 weeks. I've done 8 week base periods before, after summer race season. Other than detraining, what causes the MAF test to regress is excessive stress, either physical or mental. On the physical side of things, generally it's too much too soon that does you in. Too much time running, or too much anearobic work. On the mental, unusual stress can be like doubling your volume or running a race everday, it can easily put you into over-training if you don't cut back somewhere (running, or the thing that is stressing you).

       

      If you religiously do MAF tests every 3-4 weeks, you'll learn what works and what doesn't.  If you run those races and find that there is a decline in MAF pace, then maybe racing 8 weeks into the base phase (essentially starting a brief race season or anaerobic phase) wasn't the best thing to do at that point. If your MAF tests improve, then it was just fine. Your body was ready. Generally, what happens is that you will do an 8-16 week base phase, followed by anaerobic/race phase. When the MAF tests are no longer improving and begin to regress, go back to base phase or rest a bit, then go back to base phase and recharge your aerobic system.

       

      If you keep up on your MAF tests, and keep good records of your training, you'll learn what works for you .

       

      Good luck!

       

      --Jimmy

      Log    PRs

        great topic, I was wondering the same thing (but I was asking too many things already)!

         

         

        for me, I already signed up for a little race (12km or 7.5 miles for you) end of april, it seems I'll be able to complete 8-9 weeks of MAF before that race. my plan is to try 1 short faster run 5 days before the race so I can see I didn't forget to go a little bit faster. Smile (don't know if that's necessary... just would feel mentally reassuring?!) then I will return back to MAF except for the race itself.

        then my (first) half marathon is the second half of may, I'll just do MAF until then, perhaps I'll do one 13mile test run 1-2 weeks before the race but other than that it will be all MAF. after race, back to MAF again until august or so, is my plan.

        hmm, and there is a hill race (7 miles) in june that I'm just not going to miss because I love hills.

        there were other short (5K-10K) races that I might have signed up for but I think they aren't that important so I'll probably skip them (but it depends on stuff).

        hopefully that will be okay for me Smile in any case I'll see instantly if the races had any bad effect.

        C-R


          As always, jimmyb is a wise LHR sage and his comments should be taken to heart.

           

          I raced a couple of times during my initial base phase a couple of years past. I noticed two things 1) I did not have the "speed" I was looking to achieve and 2) my heart rate was more stable during said races. So in review, my times were not great but lets fast forward a couple of years of base and hills and speed work and my times are showing some improvements. If you use one word to describe LHR - its patience.

           

          This being said, be careful about using race performance as a true indicator of improvement based on LHR base building. It takes varying times to build a solid base for each individual. In this respect we are each like a snowflake - unique and solitary. You may see some improvement and you may not. Races (as I am learning) require their own set of skills and basebuilding will get you a foundation but may not help the sharpening.

           

          The MAF tests are the best way to measure improvement. It is controlled vs. races which are not controlled in the least (adrenaline, start line, fellow racers, weather, etc.).

           

          No clue on your age, running experience, current mileage so this is all supposition until you can fill these blanks.

           

          MTA: Oh and racing during base IMO/IME won't damage your base - miles are miles but it may take a little extra time to continue to build base.


          "He conquers who endures" - Persius
          "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

          http://ncstake.blogspot.com/

            great info, thanks!

             

            as for myself, it's okay if I don't do a very fast race, "fast" is very relative anyway and in the previous months I already achieved some "speed" and I will be fine with that for the races. anything more than that is a bonus Smile

            as for patience - it can manifest itself in several ways; in this case the decision to take a couple of races for the enjoyment and for gaining experience about how to do races at all (I've never done any before so they will be my first "PR's") may result in having to wait a couple more weeks before improving at MAF again and willing to take that risk means patience after all Smile.

            jimmyb


              I'd like to thank Norm for some good stuff there. Thanks, Norm.

              He's right about race times. What you're lloking for to happpen is for your race times to match up. You can go out and PR a 5k, but if you are tanking in longer races, then your race times aren't matching up. You can use the Team Oregon Pace Wizard to monitor that. For example if you have the speed to run a 21:00 5k, then you should be able to runa 3:30 marathon, a 1:39 half, and a 44:22 10k. If you can't get anywhere close to those times, then your aerobic system is lacking.

               

              --Jimmy

              Log    PRs

              jdazzle


                Thanks for all of the quick replies!  The upcoming races are really just to introduce my wife to a half marathon and to introduce some friends to a 10-miler, so times aren't really that important to me this time around.  As long as people are answering questions here, i'll pose some more and give some background information.

                 

                I'm 31 years old and have been running for 2 years, give or take.  I had some IT band issues in year one, but was completely fine last year.  Since I started running I haven't been getting sick like I normally used to (1 cold in 2 years is good in my book!) 

                 

                I'm a slow runner, which is why I'm trying out different methods.  My PR for a 5k is 28:00, my 10 mile is 1:42:00, and my 1/2 is 2:13:12.  I'm not sure if these line up properly, but my pace was the same for the 10 mile as it was for the 1/2...

                 

                My goals this year are to finish some sprint tri's and to complete a marathon in the fall, with some other PR distances along the way, hopefully.  For this method, I've been training at 149 bpm and lower ((180 - 31) + 0).  Is this correct?  And if so, I have been using my hrm to alert me at 148 so I can slow down.  This has my heart rate float up to 152 at the highest for no more than 10 seconds.  Is this the correct usage?  I tried it at 145 and my pace was around a 13:00/mile, but when I adjusted up to 148, it decreased to around an 11:33/mile (at 6 miles).  Is this normal?

                 

                Since my immediate goals are the tri's, I've been putting in time on the bike and in the pool, and looking back at last week my training is around 8.5 hours per week (4.5 for running, 2.5 for cycling, 1.5 for swimming), all below my MAF heart rate.  Is this enough time per week to build a good endurance base, or do I need to put in even more time?

                 

                Thanks again for the quick replies!  Hope you made it through this novel...

                jimmyb


                  You're doing the MAF running properly. On occasion, your HR will go over. The idea is to not spend too much time over it. Your MAF tests will let you know if the amount of time training is too much, or too little. I'm sure 8.5 hours is not too little at this point.

                   

                  What is normal is what is normal for you. I can't really comment on the difference between 145 and 149 BPM for you but one should be slower than the other.

                   

                  It will take more racing experience to really start being able get a a picture of how your race times are relating. If your 10k is the same as the half-marathon, then most likely you aren't pushing hard enough in the 10k. The shorter races like 5k thru 10k, when run correctly, are very stressful events. If you measure your HR in these races, the ave HR for a 5k would be around 96-97% MHR, and for a 10k around 93% MHR, with other distances like 4 and 5 miles falling in between. All these average HR's are above anaerobic threshold. Half marathon's would average just above anaerobic threshold or about 88-89% MHR. Marathons just below AT at about 85-86% MHR.

                   

                  --Jimmy

                  Log    PRs

                    I know this is a running thread, so I dont want to go into too much stuff on triathlons, but since I'm also doing some sprint ones I thought I'd comment.

                    I reckon you need to spend a bit more time on the bike - unless its an unusual distance event it will be the longest part. This may mean taking a little less time running if you have to.

                    I've found that my bike has improved the most from the MAF training.

                    I also do bricks now a bit, after an hour or so bike, I run for a few ks.

                    With swimming, Ive been concentrating mostly on technique, and not speed or really distance (though starting to a bit now)

                    Since my immediate goals are the tri's, I've been putting in time on the bike and in the pool, and looking back at last week my training is around 8.5 hours per week (4.5 for running, 2.5 for cycling, 1.5 for swimming), all below my MAF heart rate.  Is this enough time per week to build a good endurance base, or do I need to put in even more time?

                     

                    jdazzle


                      Time on the bike has also been one of my concerns, but I'm trying to reconcile on how to train for my longer races and a sprint tri...  I'm a terrible swimmer, otherwise I'd jump right into an olympic!  So, even though this is a running thread, can anyone comment on how to train for a relatively short distance tri (<20 mile bike, ~.5 mile swim) while getting enough running time to prepare for races >10mi?
                      C-R


                        Speaking for myself, ask what you want regards the LHR program. Most of us are runners (or reformed triathlete -many a year ago when I lived in Hawaii ) so we can't help much on swimming or biking. However, the LHR principles are the same and Dr. Phil does have the cycling as well as tri work that may be helpful. Perhaps Mark Allen's site can be of help. See jimmys sig line or go to the boilerplate threads.

                         

                        I find it interesting to read about tri training even if I don't comment so don't worry about it. Ask away. If you start to monopolize the board, we will just dock you some of your aerobic base.  That will slow you donw a bit.


                        "He conquers who endures" - Persius
                        "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

                        http://ncstake.blogspot.com/

                          Good thread for me because I was wondering the same thing.  I started Maffetone training 3 weeks ago and I'm signed up for 3 races in late June-early July, the Mt. Evans Ascent (14.5 miles), Slacker Half and Gothic to Crested Butte race (about 8 or 9 miles).  I still have about 85 or so days before the first one and was worried my heart rate would be super high for that since it starts above 10,000 feet and ends at about 14,250 feet.  Sadly my miles are VERY slow and I am trying hard to be patient.  Right now they are nearly 17 minute miles.  I was slow to begin with but not that slow.  Still, as a slow, lumbering, 6'1" tall runner, I want to get faster, even from the back of the pack.  The Maffetone method is testing my patience though.  Oh well, I need to build my aerobic base and I've come to the conclusion I've never really done that well, even after 6 marathons and a lot of other, smaller races.  Thanks everyone.
                          Runner and writer with a pesky day job. http://memoirsandhalftruths.wordpress.com/ "Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." -- H. T.Whitman


                          Consistently Slow

                             Welcome .Have you done a Maff test? A few of us have been at the 17minute pace and occasionally go back there.

                            Good thread for me because I was wondering the same thing.  I started Maffetone training 3 weeks ago and I'm signed up for 3 races in late June-early July, the Mt. Evans Ascent (14.5 miles), Slacker Half and Gothic to Crested Butte race (about 8 or 9 miles).  I still have about 85 or so days before the first one and was worried my heart rate would be super high for that since it starts above 10,000 feet and ends at about 14,250 feet.  Sadly my miles are VERY slow and I am trying hard to be patient.  Right now they are nearly 17 minute miles.  I was slow to begin with but not that slow.  Still, as a slow, lumbering, 6'1" tall runner, I want to get faster, even from the back of the pack.  The Maffetone method is testing my patience though.  Oh well, I need to build my aerobic base and I've come to the conclusion I've never really done that well, even after 6 marathons and a lot of other, smaller races.  Thanks everyone.

                            Run until the trail runs out.

                            2014***1500 miles

                            50 miler 13:26:18

                            Race Less Train More

                             

                            Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                            "The Marble in The Groove"

                             

                            unsolicited chatter

                            http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                              I did my first and so far only Maf test 3 weeks ago.  16.6 minute miles on average for the 5 miles, getting slower as the miles went by of course.  It was also at night, cold and snowing  a little, a lot of crazy wind on the front of the storm and then I got bored running around the high school track and went barefoot for 2 or so miles so it may not be the most accurate test ever.  I'll do my second Maf test this coming week on Monday or Tuesday night.  I have a 10 miler tomorrow that I hope doesn't drive me nuts going that slow.  I'm in Denver and we're getting 5 to 10" of snow overnight so that could make for a super slow run, oh well, that's when I have the time to do it. 

                               

                              I need to read up on the fueling thing too.  I used Hammer products before but I am wary of even long-chained sugars-maybe I'll give their stuff a whirl again, can't seem to tolerate wheat and am confused on how to fuel myself on a longer run.  Unless the carbs are from fruit and veggies I tend to puff up like a blowfish.  Really sucks and I don't stay on the perfect eating wagon as much as I should, then pay for it bigtime with achy joints and general inflammation.  On the three 10-milers so far this year I do a few eggs and an apple or greek yogurt with some strawberries, water with EmergenC if needed and then at the end buffalo jerky and an orange.  I know I have (refined) carbohydrate intolerance.  I had some blood sugar issues but dropped 45 lbs about 18 months ago and those went away.  Still, I have to eat some protein every few hours or I can suddenly be a cranky bitch so I figure the blood sugar issues still linger, even if my fasting numbers are good (low 80's). 

                               

                              I still weigh too much (6'1" tall, 205) but I think about 15 lbs will come off with the base building.  I think my ideal weight is about 190.  We'll see, maybe I could get a lot skinnier but I never seem to stay lower.

                               

                              I'll report back on my second Maf test results and we'll see if anything changed in my first 3 weeks doing Maffetone.

                               

                               

                               

                               

                               

                              Runner and writer with a pesky day job. http://memoirsandhalftruths.wordpress.com/ "Don't ask yourself what the world needs - ask yourself what makes you come alive, and then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." -- H. T.Whitman

                                I don't know what "Hammer products" are (I don't live in the US), but that desc somehow reminds me of artificial sweeteners - very bad stuff! my experience.

                                if it is nothing like that then sorry for this warning Smile

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