Low HR Training

1

Hadd Test (Read 1172 times)

Pammie


    I'm posting this in a new thread to keep it separate from the MAF tests, as i'm really following the Hadd route than Maffetone (no disrespect) Been a few years since i've done one so really starting from scratch it is said my Marathon pace could be 168-170 based on my MHR and with training but i am a long way away frrom that at present Conditions were cold (but you soon warm up) a little foggy and a little wind in the home straight in the 2nd half of the test. Initial plans were 140 - 150 - 160 - 170 - 180 140 - 14:10- 9:30 pace But HRM wasn't working proper had to readjust on this lap (I had already stop and started once already) managed in the end so will see what the next test is like 150 - 13:16 - 8:54 pace. This translates to my work sessions 2 x 15min @ 150 is around 8:52 pace 160 - 12:32 - 8:24 pace This looks ok (165 is about my average for 5km but way too low hopefully in time i'll get that higher and again this translates near to my 5km pace 8:10 - 8:20) 170 - Holy Moly could not get HR up anywhere near 170 for long enough, it did touch 170 briefly i stopped after 1 lap knowing this would need a lot of work 1 lap (400metres in 1:50 thats 7:23 mile pace) Self analysis - 7:23 translates to a marathon time of 3:13:35 with training that would give me a place on the elite start LOL (or is it 3:10) anyway that looks good But of course i am along way to go At present 160 avg pace would give me a GFA marathon time with some to spare, but i doubt i'm there yer. Even 140 and 150 would give me a PR.
      I'm posting this in a new thread to keep it separate from the MAF tests, as i'm really following the Hadd route than Maffetone (no disrespect) Been a few years since i've done one so really starting from scratch it is said my Marathon pace could be 168-170 based on my MHR and with training but i am a long way away frrom that at present Conditions were cold (but you soon warm up) a little foggy and a little wind in the home straight in the 2nd half of the test. Initial plans were 140 - 150 - 160 - 170 - 180 140 - 14:10- 9:30 pace But HRM wasn't working proper had to readjust on this lap (I had already stop and started once already) managed in the end so will see what the next test is like 150 - 13:16 - 8:54 pace. This translates to my work sessions 2 x 15min @ 150 is around 8:52 pace 160 - 12:32 - 8:24 pace This looks ok (165 is about my average for 5km but way too low hopefully in time i'll get that higher and again this translates near to my 5km pace 8:10 - 8:20) 170 - Holy Moly could not get HR up anywhere near 170 for long enough, it did touch 170 briefly i stopped after 1 lap knowing this would need a lot of work 1 lap (400metres in 1:50 thats 7:23 mile pace) Self analysis - 7:23 translates to a marathon time of 3:13:35 with training that would give me a place on the elite start LOL (or is it 3:10) anyway that looks good But of course i am along way to go At present 160 avg pace would give me a GFA marathon time with some to spare, but i doubt i'm there yer. Even 140 and 150 would give me a PR.
      I think your Hadd test heartrates are too high. Below are the exerpts from the Hadd article. Your max level should be 5 beats higher than your best marathon HR. I am thinking you fall into the 183 HRmax zone based on what you wrote, so your test should be 130-140-150-160-170. "Once Joe got to 50mpw, I told him to perform the following mini-test (he knew the protocol). Go to a track on a windless day, as rested as if for a race, and do the following: Run 2400m at a steady 140 HR (Stop 90 secs and record time) Run 2400m at a steady 150 HR (Stop 90 secs and record time) Run 2400m at a steady 160 HR (Stop 90 secs and record time) Run 2400m at a steady 170 HR (Stop 90 secs and record time) Run 2400m at a steady 180 HR (Stop 90 secs and record time) At all times, adjust the running pace to maintain a stable HR. On each new stage slowly edge the HR up (ie: it is ok if the HR takes the first 600-800m to reach target level), then simply maintain HR. DO NOT start fast and have to slow to maintain target HR. " "Perform a 2400m test on yourself (from easy training pace to a max of 5bpm higher than your particular HRmarathon- see below).. Once again ensuring you are fit, fresh, rested as if for an important race and all possible variables (wind, etc) are controlled as much as possible. Since you are going to conduct this 2400m test again and again, you must try and ensure that, as much as possible, all tests are done under near identical conditions (or else you start wondering such thoughts as, "am I faster because it was less windy this time?"). Do all you can to control against such doubts having to occur (ie: don’t test in gale force winds)." "b) If you have a GOOD relationship, and your HRmax is like Joe’s (193+) then your best marathon race HR will be 175 ±. If you do the 2400m test, you should find that your pace at 170 HR is very close to best marathon pace (although HR in the race might be 175+). AND you should feel that running at 170 HR is no big deal. You can maintain it comfortably for a long time without even thinking." Here's the full article: http://www.counterpartcoaching.com/hadd.pdf
      Pammie


        Thanks for your reply there i have read the Hadd article before but i admit that i haven't read it in depth for a while. I was thinking today after the test maybe next time i should start at 130, i know i can't run that long at 170 and less even at 180 though i once could (lost a lot of fitness last year so going back to basics As it goes my max is 191, seen at the end of short 5kms and have come close to that at the end of some other races where i wanted to be sick so i know its pretty much right.
          So, your 140-150-160-170-180 is not too far off if your max is 191. Maybe 135-145-155-165-175 for you, with the 165 being the marathon pace indicator, might work the best. One thing I did incorrectly in my Hadd test was to increase my HR quickly to the target HR and average that target HR. At all times, adjust the running pace to maintain a stable HR. On each new stage slowly edge the HR up (ie: it is ok if the HR takes the first 600-800m to reach target level), then simply maintain HR. DO NOT start fast and have to slow to maintain target HR. "
          Pammie


            So, your 140-150-160-170-180 is not too far off if your max is 191. Maybe 135-145-155-165-175 for you, with the 165 being the marathon pace indicator, might work the best"
            Now theres a thought will try that next time
              Apologies if this is covered elsewhere, but I was just wondering about 2 things with the Hadd test.

              1. From what I've read, the 2400 m length was picked so  the famous "Joe" would run for 8 minutes.

              For us mere mortals, where 8 min miles are tough,  would a mile suffice?

              2. Are the 5 HR settings fixed percentages of HR max (or HRReserve ?)


              I'm pretty new to all this low HR training, at the moment I'm following Maffetone, but thinking of experimenting with Hadd after a period of Maffetone base.


                Hey Sean,

                 

                 

                The idea of that test is to test how well you are improving at increments of 10 bpm, with the main focus on that final tier that is just above your marathon HR, which is where your lactate threshold usually resides if you are well-trained. If that tier is improving, and you are feeling comfortable, then that is a good sign. If your LT is in bad shape, then that level will feel very uncomfortable. It might be wise to run them by time instead of by 2400m. Take a look at Joe's times for each level, and try to mirror the time instead of the length.

                 

                Some believe that the whole building game that Hadd lays out is not necessary and that a 20-40 minute weekly lactate threshold tempo run (starting with 20 min) at 88-90% of MHR, or somewhere around 15k to half marathon pace, is all you need, in addition to everyday aerobic training. Some will alternate the LT run with cruise intervals every other week. You can measure your LT progress in those weekly runs.

                 

                 

                --Jimmy

                 

                 

                "may you staaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy... forever young" B.Dylan

                log


                Consistently Slow

                  Hey Sean,

                   

                   

                  The idea of that test is to test how well you are improving at increments of 10 bpm, with the main focus on that final tier that is just above your marathon HR, which is where your lactate threshold usually resides if you are well-trained. If that tier is improving, and you are feeling comfortable, then that is a good sign. If your LT is in bad shape, then that level will feel very uncomfortable. It might be wise to run them by time instead of by 2400m. Take a look at Joe's times for each level, and try to mirror the time instead of the length.

                   

                  Some believe that the whole building game that Hadd lays out is not necessary and that a 20-40 minute weekly lactate threshold tempo run (starting with 20 min) at 88-90% of MHR, or somewhere around 15k to half marathon pace, is all you need, in addition to everyday aerobic training. Some will alternate the LT run with cruise intervals every other week. You can measure your LT progress in those weekly runs.

                   

                   

                  --Jimmy

                   

                   

                   

                   

                  I am late to the party. Will give Hadd a try  tomorrow morning .Glad I checked for other  posts. The plan was to run the 2400m but will now do  test  at 8 minutes.

                  Run until the trail runs out.

                  2013***1500 miles

                  50 miler

                  Race Less Train More

                   

                  Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                  "The Marble in The Groove"

                   

                  unsolicited chatter

                  http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                    ahah, nice old thread, I read through it and now my usual ranting(yes getting old!) about Hadd's ideas follows...

                     

                    Ace8 says in a post here that the max level of HR tested in the 2400m test should be 5 bpm higher than best marathon HR. and then jimmyb says that if the LT is in bad shape the marathonHR+5 will feel very uncomfortable.

                     

                    now, I know my LT has so far been in bad shape because my paces drop crazy for longer distances like the half marathon. in june my LT was this crappy: 8:00min/mile race pace for 4.5mile distance, but 10:10min/mile pace for half marathon...?! in the same month, I did a 2400m hadd test (my only one so far), and 180bpm felt ridiculously easy. maybe 190 would have challenged me a bit, but it would have been doable. 180, just a joke, very easy. it took about 12.5mins at a ~183bpm average by the way.  I believe that was just slightly below my LT at that time in june, based on the pace.

                     

                    I've struggled with understanding this but I still fail to interpret that... bad LT but happy at 180bpm for a long time? meh...

                     

                    other thing, this was in the summer again, I did ~4hour run (a bit less than 4hours) at an average of 175bpm no problem, didn't even need food/didn't really get hungry (I did drink water). so I've already got the best possible HRmarathon sorted? though, the distance wasn't a marathon, as the effort was lower, but not really low either (for example in that run, at a point I ran up a nice steep hill for a relatively long time in the 190-195 bpm range). so, what's the deal here, I don't know. maybe one day I'll figure it out.

                     

                    (I got 2 ideas: 1) LT maybe isn't bad just something else needed for 2hour distances is bad 2) maybe my HR just doesn't behave like the average person's)

                      ahah, nice old thread, I read through it and now my usual ranting(yes getting old!) about Hadd's ideas follows...

                       

                      Ace8 says in a post here that the max level of HR tested in the 2400m test should be 5 bpm higher than best marathon HR. and then jimmyb says that if the LT is in bad shape the marathonHR+5 will feel very uncomfortable.

                       

                      now, I know my LT has so far been in bad shape because my paces drop crazy for longer distances like the half marathon. in june my LT was this crappy: 8:00min/mile race pace for 4.5mile distance, but 10:10min/mile pace for half marathon...?! in the same month, I did a 2400m hadd test (my only one so far), and 180bpm felt ridiculously easy. maybe 190 would have challenged me a bit, but it would have been doable. 180, just a joke, very easy. it took about 12.5mins at a ~183bpm average by the way.  I believe that was just slightly below my LT at that time in june, based on the pace.

                       

                      I've struggled with understanding this but I still fail to interpret that... bad LT but happy at 180bpm for a long time? meh...

                       

                      other thing, this was in the summer again, I did ~4hour run (a bit less than 4hours) at an average of 175bpm no problem, didn't even need food/didn't really get hungry (I did drink water). so I've already got the best possible HRmarathon sorted? though, the distance wasn't a marathon, as the effort was lower, but not really low either (for example in that run, at a point I ran up a nice steep hill for a relatively long time in the 190-195 bpm range). so, what's the deal here, I don't know. maybe one day I'll figure it out.

                       

                      (I got 2 ideas: 1) LT maybe isn't bad just something else needed for 2hour distances is bad 2) maybe my HR just doesn't behave like the average person's)

                       

                      The best way to start sorting things out is to experiment with these things and see them through. Also, the more experience you get racing, you will learn more and more about yourself. I did the HADD program back in 2004, saw it through to the end--it led to my first marathon. I went through each LT level. Even though I did that, and learned about how it worked, there was so much I still didn't know about running marathons, recovery, pacing, how to eat, the wall, etc. etc. etc. Despite having done the Hadd program, and seemingly moving my LT as he described, I hit the wall in my first marathon. I hit the wall in a subsequent half marathon. My second marathon I ran into abdominal cramping and slowing. I tried the plans in Pfitzinger's book "Advanced Marathoning" and saw it through. I experimented with the Maffetone Method and saw it through. This is how I learned about these things.

                       

                      The experiences I had in races and  in training taught me about my body, about injuries, about rest, recovery, about crankiness when not getting enough carbs, about dead legs, about tapering well, about going off schedule and getting rest, about not eating pancakes an hour before a marathon, about slowing your pace when the heat starts to kick your butt, about thanking volunteers, about digging deep and maintaining pace, about chaffing, about using Bodyglide to prevent bleeding nipples, about wearing shoes a few sizes too big to prevent black toenails and foot pain, preventing blisters with Bodyglide and bandaid, preventing bleeding toes by making sure all toenails are short enough, about not stopping for a pee break at mile 13 and holding it until after the race even though you have to go badly, about not doing progressive long runs 5 days after a half marathon, about resting for 3-5 days after a half marathon, about not dressing too warmly, that when you're standing there before a marathon in 45º freezing in a singlet and shorts that it can't get any more perfect, how to avoid runners wearing Ipods or to make them aware of you because they are in their own world most of the time and will cut in front of you and trip you if you aren't careful---the list goes on and on.

                       

                      The advice CR (Norm), Ron, and others have been trying to give you comes from a lot of experience. The main theme of most of it has been to keep it simple, stick to a plan, and learn from the experience you will gain as you go. It's also wise to listen to your running "elders"--often you will pick up some nice pearls. BodyGlide on the nipples advice from a runner who made it to the Olympic marathon trials was a godsend for me. Same guy told me to stop with the cotton clothes. One of my favorite club members told me (he's 72) to start the marathon slowly and pick up speed as you go (nothing about fat-burning or fibers or anything)--simple advice from someone who ran 30+ marathons. Another put the bug in my ear about not slowing down at the end of a marathon, that the slowing was mental if it wasn't a wall. Both of these men were part of the reason I eventually qualified for Boston and got my marathon time down to 3:22 from 4:14. My running elders. One of these "elders" has been one of the top 60+ tear old age group runners in the USA. Lucky me. ANd lucky me that I listened and experimented with their advice and saw it through.

                       

                      I'm jumping in on the bandwagon with Norm and Ron and basically saying the same thing. Simplify, stick to a plan or experiment, see it through to see what happens, race, recover, and learn. All these numbers and HR's and LT's and MHR's and HADD's and MAF's mean absolutely nothing unless you've seen each of these programs through, done them correctly, run a bunch of marathons and races, and gained the experience.

                       

                      My experience has also been that the learning never stops, because the body keeps changing, and so do the challenges.

                       

                      Keep going, C!

                       

                      --Jimmy

                      "may you staaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy... forever young" B.Dylan

                      log


                      Consistently Slow

                        Plan to give Hadd a go until my Bermuda marathon. Maffing has put BQing back on the table. Smile The RA race predictor has me at 3:47xx I  need 3:45Tight lipped x.

                        Run until the trail runs out.

                        2013***1500 miles

                        50 miler

                        Race Less Train More

                         

                        Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                        "The Marble in The Groove"

                         

                        unsolicited chatter

                        http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                          Plan to give Hadd a go until my Bermuda marathon. Maffing has put BQing back on the table. Smile The RA race predictor has me at 3:47xx I  need 3:45Tight lipped x.

                           

                           Bermuda Marathon. That's the one where you were hiring me as coach and bringing me along, all expenses paid, as part of your entourage, right?

                           

                          Getting close, Ron. Get that BQ!

                          --Jimmy

                           

                          "may you staaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy... forever young" B.Dylan

                          log

                             

                             

                            The best way to start sorting things out is to experiment with these things and see them through.

                             

                             

                            jimmyb, I thank you a lot for taking the time for this long reply (you have a lot of patience with me, too!). you are very right about the stuff you said.

                             

                            though, here's just one note which happened to get a bit long, sorry for that; I'm not as totally clueless as someone who started out a day ago. this is because I'm part of a local running community in my country, a big community with nice people, who help everyone and newbies a lot and there is a nice running shoe shop too and I'd already learnt a lot from them. I try to give the help back to people who've just started out (like, they've been running for only 1 day or 1 week, you get the idea. we get a lot of those people asking on our local online forum) - for example, I can totally relate about the shoe size stuff, I keep telling them they should buy big shoes. I got really lucky in this area because when I didn't have the slightest idea (I'd been running for a month then), I went to the shop I mentioned above because people in the community recommended it highly and the woman in the shop had me try a shoe that was several sizes bigger than my normal shoe size. I've had that shoe since then and I've never had any issue with toenails or blisters! looking at my feet won't tell that I'm running regularly. Smile

                            and I always buy new shoes around that (big) size. most of the other things you listed are not new to me either, for example these are not new to me: no cotton clothes, handling peeing issue in races, slowing pace in strong sunshine, adequate nutrition (don't eat too much but don't eat too little either and eat protein too etc.), long resting after long distance races (I do need it!!). btw, I'm proud to say that I can also handle running in weather even colder than 15F, thanks to advice from those people (and my own experience from last winter). it is not easy to get dressed right for a run in <15F, but it is fun! Smile then, your forum and Maffetone taught me not to eat 2 hours prior to workout (well, three, I still keep to this rule even though I'm not doing MAF runs atm, but I only keep 2 hours now, easier that way). and with other things I just got plain lucky, for example I've never had an issue with chafing, even though I've heard horror stories about it, even the HRM strap doesn't bother me (nipples are covered by sports bra anyway). using proper running socks maybe also helps, I don't know, I didn't run much without running socks except for the first month which was a run-walk program anyway. Smile

                             

                            so no, I'm not as clueless as someone starting out 1 day ago, but of course I've yet to experience a few things. marathons is definitely one such thing Smile or maybe a 5K with proper pacing, hehehe.

                            but, as for the physiology and training theories, I'm just plain interested in that stuff, I can't help it, I totally enjoy delving into it, I'm kind of a researcher in "real life" anyway (not in exercise physiology though it would definitely be fascinating!!). this is why I had this rant about Hadd... hehe. I did notice that most people don't care about theories, they prefer just doing things which is not a problem at all, but I can only hope I don't appear as annoying to them with my musings and ideas, theories, etc. I'm fully aware they are just theories, though. Wink

                             

                            as for Hadd, I have indeed tried it. and the previous post was basically my current conclusion of it. I will see how it works out for me later perhaps next year or so. I will have more of a base by then and my body could be reacting differently.

                              Plan to give Hadd a go until my Bermuda marathon. Maffing has put BQing back on the table. Smile The RA race predictor has me at 3:47xx I  need 3:45Tight lipped x.

                               

                              do post your experiences, hadd tests, I will be very interested to look at your progression! good luck to the BQ! I'm pretty sure BQ won't be impossible for you. I think the trick for most people is the missing endurance, not the speed.