Low HR Training

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age and improvement (Read 550 times)

newgeneration


    I have been very encouraged by reading many examples of pace improvement at MAF after consistent training. This gives me much comfort in training at a slower pace. I would like to know if there is an age at which dramatic pace improvements are not seen. (I am a 43yo M). Are there any factors inherent to the runner that affect observed MAF pace improvements with proper training? Experiences and hunches from observation are greatly appreciated.


    run-easy-race-hard

      I have been very encouraged by reading many examples of pace improvement at MAF after consistent training. This gives me much comfort in training at a slower pace. I would like to know if there is an age at which dramatic pace improvements are not seen. (I am a 43yo M). Are there any factors inherent to the runner that affect observed MAF pace improvements with proper training? Experiences and hunches from observation are greatly appreciated.
      I don't think there's any such age. Probably depends on when you started running, how long you've been running, and how well you have been training.
        Welcome aboard, Newgeneration! As FMF mentioned (wow, this will take some getting used to!), we need more data. What are your recent races paces? Max HR (it matters for people with a low max HR)? Miles per week running? Lay it on us...the more data, the better. Jimmyb loves data...a lot. Smile
        newgeneration


          Thanks for the responses. Docster, I will provide some information, but I will divide it over two posts. The first is my running history (such as it is). I started running in '06. After a few half marathons, I decided to try to run a full marathon in October. I was running about 35 mpw for the summer leading up to the marathon, and got some good long runs in. I don't have the split times for the marathon, but I slowed significantly at mile 21 or so. I didn't walk, but my pace started to climb up, and I was just hanging on. This year I ran a lot less in races and trained fewer miles per week, but basically had been running for two years straight, so I tried the same marathon again. This time I was more conservative going out. I split the half at about 1:49 and finished in 3:41. Of the times listed below, the most significant comment I can make is the 20 mi race where I crashed at 18 mi. and walked significant portions of the last two miles. half marathon 1:49:53 3/12/06 half marathon 1:46:29 5/13/06 half marathon 1:44:37 9/03/06 marathon 3:50:26 10/15/06 8K 38:06 11/23/06 20mi 2:50:00 3/25/07 5 mi 37:46 07/04/07 marathon 3:41:20 10/14/07
          newgeneration


            When I bought my HRM I ran the test below. I have been pretty consistent in my training, but due to family and work I have had rough weeks here and there. I want to run four solid weeks (starting this week) and then do another test to see where I am. My trends these days are to start at around 9:40 for the first two miles, then settle in around 10:30, which holds up to over 7 miles (the farthest I have run with a HRM). Sorry the data is a little splotchy, but I haven't been collecting it consistently. My original post in this string was not so much about fearing that I am too old to see significant improvements (although there is that thought in the back of my mind...), but rather how long can the improvements be maintained? My goal is to run a sub 3:30 marathon this year. I would llike to BQ at some point, and the LRH method is consistent with my goals of minimizing chances for injury. I really like the biofeedback and the thoughts and motivation of the community here (and formerly CR). 1. 10/22/07 5 mile a. 10:11.70 137 b. 10:11.49 136 c. 10:05.05 137 d. 10:14.20 136 e. 10:16.68 137
            jimmyb


            port-a-bella-potty

              Lay it on us...the more data, the better. Jimmyb loves data...a lot. Smile
              That's because I play Fantasy Running Coach in my spare time. I just can't seem to get through to Deena these days, she's into this "me" phase that's driving me nuts.

              Log    PRs

              jimmyb


              port-a-bella-potty

                When I bought my HRM I ran the test below. I have been pretty consistent in my training, but due to family and work I have had rough weeks here and there. I want to run four solid weeks (starting this week) and then do another test to see where I am. My trends these days are to start at around 9:40 for the first two miles, then settle in around 10:30, which holds up to over 7 miles (the farthest I have run with a HRM). Sorry the data is a little splotchy, but I haven't been collecting it consistently. My original post in this string was not so much about fearing that I am too old to see significant improvements (although there is that thought in the back of my mind...), but rather how long can the improvements be maintained? My goal is to run a sub 3:30 marathon this year. I would llike to BQ at some point, and the LRH method is consistent with my goals of minimizing chances for injury. I really like the biofeedback and the thoughts and motivation of the community here (and formerly CR). 1. 10/22/07 5 mile a. 10:11.70 137 b. 10:11.49 136 c. 10:05.05 137 d. 10:14.20 136 e. 10:16.68 137
                You are not too old to see benefits from the training. To get that BQ, you need to have a huge aerobic engine. In two years, I went from 4:14 to 3:22 BQ (age 46) using low-HR training for base periods. I've manage to BQ 3 out of my last 3 all-out marathons. I attribute the improvement to the base periods followed by a brief period of once a week tempo runs, with the rest of the miles (90% of them) at low HR. The aerobic system can continually improve, and can be maintained if you don't get away from working it for too long. What are some of your recent PR's? --Jimmy

                Log    PRs

                newgeneration


                  Hi Jimmy, Thanks for the insights from experience. All my times are listed above the post you quoted from. The 3:41 marathon was from this last October. I did not run a lot of races this year, as we had a child, and that made training (and racing) a lower priority. Ted
                  jimmyb


                  port-a-bella-potty

                    I missed that post. 3:41 from 3:50, making progress. That slowing thing in the end can be a thing of the past if you build the engine. Doesn't mean you won't get a little tired, but no glycogen crashes. Any slowing will be the result of a mental choice (or a start that is WAY too fast). I ran the last three races through the McMillan calculator. Interesting. The 3:41 beats those other races. Probably because you must have trained a bit more than the other races, since you haven't had much time this year. Congratulations on your new child. I wish you and your family health, wealth, and creative, joyful times. --Jimmy

                    Log    PRs

                    newgeneration


                      I am really excited to "build the engine" and have the time to do so. I am hoping to run my next marathon in October, and this winter should provide a lot of LHR time. I may run a 20 miler or a half or two if I have the chance in the Spring. Thanks for the kind words and the encouragement. All the best to you and yours for the holiday and the year to come. Ted


                      Master of Inconsistency

                        Ted, aka newgeneration, I too am 43 and trying out MAF for the first time. Your pace is pretty good for your HR. If I might ask what was your Max Heart rate during your run. It's funny cause my engine must need more of a tune up than yours since I haven't broke the 11minute mile yet. I've never run a marathon but our other race times are fairly similar. This could prove a good experiment. I'll be posting in Jimmy's daily thread hope to see you there! Happy Maffin, Greg

                        Ain't  Wastin' Time No More !


                        Wasatch Speedgoat

                          I'd like to throw a wrench in the works here.... I once ran a 2:48 marathon, back about 26 years ago. Most of my training was low HR (Van Aaken), but I did race every weekend at a 2.5 mile race and I was usually running that at 5:30 pace or better. This was my speedwork. Most of the rest of the week I was running back and forth to work at a really comfortable pace adding up to around 100 mpw. I was able to hang onto running just over 3 hours in my early 40's when I switched over to ultrarunning, training for and running mostly 100 mile races. 10 years later I am a slow beast...I can run forever and when ramping up I'll still run around 70MPW, but i have gotten real slow running all those slow miles without any speedwork. I still like to run most of my running at a real slow pace (translates to comfortable pace), but i will step it up a few times a week with short sprints in the middle of my runs. It seems to be helping....I am now doing most of my easy running at closer to 9 mpm than the 11 mpm I've been doing the past 4-5 years. So, yeah, train slow to build the aerobic engine, but don't neglect the other speeds. Come the springtime, I will mix it up with hills, sprints and tempo runs, which will all add up to less than 10% of my mileage. BTW: I'm 56 and am a better, more solid runner today that I was 30 years ago Wink
                          Life is short, play hard!
                            I'd like to throw a wrench in the works here.... I once ran a 2:48 marathon, back about 26 years ago. Most of my training was low HR (Van Aaken), but I did race every weekend at a 2.5 mile race and I was usually running that at 5:30 pace or better. This was my speedwork. Most of the rest of the week I was running back and forth to work at a really comfortable pace adding up to around 100 mpw. I was able to hang onto running just over 3 hours in my early 40's when I switched over to ultrarunning, training for and running mostly 100 mile races. 10 years later I am a slow beast...I can run forever and when ramping up I'll still run around 70MPW, but i have gotten real slow running all those slow miles without any speedwork. I still like to run most of my running at a real slow pace (translates to comfortable pace), but i will step it up a few times a week with short sprints in the middle of my runs. It seems to be helping....I am now doing most of my easy running at closer to 9 mpm than the 11 mpm I've been doing the past 4-5 years. So, yeah, train slow to build the aerobic engine, but don't neglect the other speeds. Come the springtime, I will mix it up with hills, sprints and tempo runs, which will all add up to less than 10% of my mileage. BTW: I'm 56 and am a better, more solid runner today that I was 30 years ago Wink
                            I definitely agree with this. Although my aerobic base isn't all that great, even when I first started running it wasn't that hard for me to run "decent" paces at a MAF or lower HR. As my mileage increased and I lost more and more weight, I just kept getting faster. Now my weight has evened out (which I intend to change finally Smile) for the past 5 months, I've stiill continued to slowly improve. However, I do speedwork as well. Not much up until recently though. (ran a Marathon in October, and have been back doing some base training for a few months) I'm not doing some short hard hill repeats (which ironically aren't even that taxing on the HR these days) as well as tempo runs of 20 to 25 minutes (5K + 20 seconds give or take) or 1600 meter repeats. I do those once a week. So, the vast majority of my miles are still very comfortable, but I do try to get some speedwork in. Some weeks I just throw a few marathon paced miles into a run and call that my speedwork. I kind of wing my training for the most part. 65 to 80 mpw when gearing up for a marathon, and I throw in speedwork here and there.
                            newgeneration


                              Ted, aka newgeneration, I too am 43 and trying out MAF for the first time. Your pace is pretty good for your HR. If I might ask what was your Max Heart rate during your run. It's funny cause my engine must need more of a tune up than yours since I haven't broke the 11minute mile yet. I've never run a marathon but our other race times are fairly similar. This could prove a good experiment. I'll be posting in Jimmy's daily thread hope to see you there! Happy Maffin, Greg
                              Hi Greg, It is possible that before I started training with a HRM, I ran a lot of slow miles in preparation to MAF...I am still pretty interested to see how pace will improve over time, and it is great to see others doing the same thing. I posted some runs in Jimmy's thread and hope to do so regularly. Regarding my max heartrate, I had some trouble with my monitor, where it would skip around (especially during warmup); I have a thread on this. Now the lotion seems to make the readings more stable. These blips always confused me, because it would be a brief max. Now I think they are not real. I had been running where I would allow myself to get up to 140-142, but now my alarm is set to 140, and my max has been around 139. I run almost all miles on a treadmill, so there are no nasty hills to deal with...


                              run-easy-race-hard

                                My speedwork is basically the marathons I run. Fortunately I continue to get faster at them. I do make a major effort to pick up the pace when running down hills. I'm definitely on one extreme of this approach. I can't even come close to marathon pace in a training run unless I'm going down hill!
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