Low HR Training

1

Bike at MAF? Bike under MAF? (Read 1476 times)


Beginner all over again

    So....

     

    What's the story for MAF-training for Running and cycling two days a week?

     

    Should I aim to Bike at MAF?

    If I do, my muscles burn...does that matter? Does that mean I'm not MAF-ing or should Bike under MAF

    or

    Is that just part of my legs getting used to using cycling muscles?

    or should I bike at MAF-20 ??

     

    I don't want to tire my Running muscles out on their Rest Days  ....

     

    Is there some general advice/plan about MAF-running training and XT on the bike???

     

    Thank you!

     

      So....

       

      What's the story for MAF-training for Running and cycling two days a week?

       

      Should I aim to Bike at MAF?

      If I do, my muscles burn...does that matter? Does that mean I'm not MAF-ing or should Bike under MAF

      or

      Is that just part of my legs getting used to using cycling muscles?

      or should I bike at MAF-20 ??

       

      I don't want to tire my Running muscles out on their Rest Days  ....

       

      Is there some general advice/plan about MAF-running training and XT on the bike???

       

      Thank you!

       

      According to Dr. Phil, you should use your MAF HR for all your cross training.

       

      What kind of bike to you have? Does it have gears or just a single speed?

       

      Reason for asking is that the burning in your legs may be from using a gear that is to big for the terrain. Typically you want a cycling cadence in the range of 85 to 100. Anything lower then 80 and your are working your muscles to hard for a longer time each revloution compared to a higher cadence. That is one of the reasons Armstaong and LeMond were so dominate for so long in cycling. They used a higher cadence then what the average cadence was in those days. 

       

      The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

       

      2014 Goals:

       

      Stay healthy

      Enjoy life

       

        So....

         

        What's the story for MAF-training for Running and cycling two days a week?

         

        Should I aim to Bike at MAF?

        If I do, my muscles burn...does that matter? Does that mean I'm not MAF-ing or should Bike under MAF

        or

        Is that just part of my legs getting used to using cycling muscles?

        or should I bike at MAF-20 ??

         

        I don't want to tire my Running muscles out on their Rest Days  ....

         

        Is there some general advice/plan about MAF-running training and XT on the bike???

         

        Thank you!

         

        you should bike at MAF... your muscles are just untrained for that. but I guess as Burn Toast mentioned, cadence can be a problem too, so check out that too.

        or, if you are going uphill, don't be surprised, you have to train your quads for that a bit more SmileSmile (for uphill of course change gear too!)

        cjrees


          I have run for many years, but got injured last year so took up cycling agin. Just completed the London to Paris bikeride (320 miles in 4 days, longest 113 with 1.5 miles climbing.). My HR for biking has fallen by av 25 beats and speed increased from 12 to 17mph. There is NO WAY I can sustain MAF (132), but can cycle at av 15mph with hills for hours. Tried this morning and simply to hard, I only get into the MAF zone on hills, otherwise HR can drop to 95-110!

           

          Have just restarted running and MAF at 132 is 10.34. Will do a bike test next week at MAF -10 and have decided to lower ALL ranges for BIKE by 10. STu Mittleman talks of MAP,MEP and SAP, so maybe I need more MAP? MAP is MAF-20 to MAF-10 bpm

           

          Thoughts appreciated.

            I have run for many years, but got injured last year so took up cycling agin. Just completed the London to Paris bikeride (320 miles in 4 days, longest 113 with 1.5 miles climbing.). My HR for biking has fallen by av 25 beats and speed increased from 12 to 17mph. There is NO WAY I can sustain MAF (132), but can cycle at av 15mph with hills for hours. Tried this morning and simply to hard, I only get into the MAF zone on hills, otherwise HR can drop to 95-110!

             

            Have just restarted running and MAF at 132 is 10.34. Will do a bike test next week at MAF -10 and have decided to lower ALL ranges for BIKE by 10. STu Mittleman talks of MAP,MEP and SAP, so maybe I need more MAP? MAP is MAF-20 to MAF-10 bpm

             

            Thoughts appreciated.

             

             

            the thing is since I replied to FrancesRe last year I realized that HR does not directly show anaerobic contribution at all.

            (by anaerobic I mean energy production without any oxygen at all, with waste products such as H+ ions.)

             

            burning muscles means they are going anaerobic. you do not want that.

             

            make sure cadence is at 90rpm and just go at a HR that does not cause the muscles to burn. I would not try to maintain a HR that does that, if the goal is staying aerobic.

             

            there are a few HR training plans for biking, could be useful. I liked the one where there was a low aerobic zone (pretty low HR, definitely lower than MAF), a general aerobic zone, and a few anaerobic zones. I need to find the link...

             

            by the way I don't have this muscle issue at the 180-age HR myself (not even at +10), when I'm on a real bike on the roads.

             

            180-age HR is hard to do on a stationary bike though (a plain stat bike, not a spinning bike, with that one there is no problem getting the HR higher).

             

            also, I think LT HR is lower on a bike compared to running..for me maybe by 15bpm but I did not properly test this yet (threshold for spinning bike is about that much lower, didn't test on road bike yet but definitely at least 5bpm lower there too).

            bertrand


              I went biking in the gym yesterday. I didn't do that long compared to running and just did 30 min. I noticed that my heart rate at lvl 10 was around 105 my maf is 140. I did 5 min at lvl 12 where i was at 120 - 125 but i couldn't bike like that for hours...  All the RPM were around 95 100. 

               

              I definitely think that this level 12 was not too far or even at anaerobic level. It is surprising when you see HR though. I would love to have more comments about this. Should i just keep going at lvl 10  longer  to build up muscles or just build it up at lvl 12 where HR is closer to MAF ( but still 15 to 20 bpm away)

               

              Thanks for your help on this guys

               

               

              Edit : found this on the subject

               

              http://philmaffetone.com/forum.cfm?forum_action=showposts&topicid=78525

              Bertrand

               

              PR: 5k  31'15'' (220 lbs)

                I went biking in the gym yesterday. I didn't do that long compared to running and just did 30 min. I noticed that my heart rate at lvl 10 was around 105 my maf is 140. I did 5 min at lvl 12 where i was at 120 - 125 but i couldn't bike like that for hours...  All the RPM were around 95 100. 

                 

                I definitely think that this level 12 was not too far or even at anaerobic level. It is surprising when you see HR though. I would love to have more comments about this. Should i just keep going at lvl 10  longer  to build up muscles or just build it up at lvl 12 where HR is closer to MAF ( but still 15 to 20 bpm away)

                 

                Thanks for your help on this guys

                 

                 

                Edit : found this on the subject

                 

                http://philmaffetone.com/forum.cfm?forum_action=showposts&topicid=78525

                 

                 

                if you couldn't keep 120-125 for hours, then it was anaerobic. why do you feel it wasn't?

                 

                ps: I have no idea how the above stuff came out in blue letters like that. Smile I accidentally pressed some key on the keyboard (no idea which one) and it turned blue after that...

                  Edit : found this on the subject

                   

                  http://philmaffetone.com/forum.cfm?forum_action=showposts&topicid=78525

                   

                   

                  I read that before, but he doesn't explain it too well. I asked a question now in that thread about it. I'll be happy to read the reply on it Smile (maffetone usually does reply sooner or later)

                  bertrand


                    if you couldn't keep 120-125 for hours, then it was anaerobic. why do you feel it wasn't?

                     

                    ps: I have no idea how the above stuff came out in blue letters like that. Smile I accidentally pressed some key on the keyboard (no idea which one) and it turned blue after that...

                     

                     

                    Maybe because the muscle involved aren't as developed as the heart. It was pretty hard but still heart rate was so low. Now i only bike every two weeks or so and that may be the problem.

                    Bertrand

                     

                    PR: 5k  31'15'' (220 lbs)

                      Maybe because the muscle involved aren't as developed as the heart. It was pretty hard but still heart rate was so low. Now i only bike every two weeks or so and that may be the problem.

                       

                       

                      well if it was just uncomfortable but not burning/heavy then it could be just what you said.

                       

                      I'm curious: what happens if you try a lower gear (with rpm still at 90-100 or higher)? are you able to push HR higher without as much discomfort?

                       

                      I'm guessing not, in my case not, I mean, no discomfort BUT the HR was lower too..)

                       

                      another interesting thing is.. I have a running friend and neither of us bike often, he does it a bit more often than me but definitely not more than 1-2 times a week and he does nothing hard.

                       

                      well, in running my heart rate is about 20bpm lower than his at the same (slow) pace. (my LTHR is higher than his, though. and yes I'm the faster runner.)

                       

                      BUT - when we tried to compare our HR's on stationary bike, his HR was about 20bpm lower than mine and he could not push it to his MAF, only to MAF-10-ish or so (180-age-5 minus additional 10-odd). I was able to push mine to MAF+10 (where MAF is 180-age), but that was pretty hard to do. this was about 30bpm higher than his "max" HR. at this HR, I wasn't pedaling much faster than him, just a little faster, about 10% (we both tried to max out). I was definitely not as much faster as the HR difference would suggest if we compare to running. with this biking stuff, at the same speed my HR was about 10-20bpm higher than his..

                       

                      so as a sum-up it looks like his biking HR is lower than mine, at the same speed on stationary bike. very different story than in running. yet, I was still a bit faster than him on the stat bike in the max speed test that we tried for fun.

                       

                      also, I was tolerating the same HR much better than him, e.g. I was feeling very comfortable and easy at 135bpm, he was about maxing out at 135bpm. I was also feeling more comfortable at the same speed than him (though my HR was obviously higher than his).

                       

                      on a road bike it is a different story...with uphill biking, he can push HR as high as 200bpm. I haven't tried to go that high...I've seen 189 and I wasn't "dying", did not need to breathe much, but there was quite some burning in quadriceps.

                       

                      note, our maxHR's in running are about identical, around 210.

                       

                      also on flat roads I can go higher than on stationary bike. have not tried how much higher. I'm also able to push HR significantly higher on spinning bike as compared to plain stationary bike. don't know why. MAF+30 (180-age+30) was certainly possible. I did not  try to max out though.

                       

                      anyway, I just talked about this to add some more data on this topic Smile

                      wbr


                        It is a lot easier for me to ride at maf than to run at maf. I can ride at my maf of 128 for 1-2 hours at a decent pace of 17-18 mph but it's still hard for me to run and stay at or below maf. But everything is still fat and flat here in Florida.

                         

                        wbr

                          It is a lot easier for me to ride at maf than to run at maf. I can ride at my maf of 128 for 1-2 hours at a decent pace of 17-18 mph but it's still hard for me to run and stay at or below maf. But everything is still fat and flat here in Florida.

                           

                          wbr

                           

                           

                          yea that's pretty normal - let me add that part of the reason is that smaller muscle mass needs to be working when cycling compared to running. less oxygen processing that way so less stress on the heart for sure

                           

                          also will go anaerobic at lower HR than when running. Smile

                          wbr


                            also will go anaerobic at lower HR than when running. Smile

                             

                            I didn't know that. Why is that?

                             

                            Bob

                              I didn't know that. Why is that?

                               

                              Bob

                               

                               

                              okay let me try and rephrase. in biking vs running:

                               

                              less muscle mass working = lower HR

                               

                              if this muscle mass goes anaerobic = that's also lower HR than in running

                               

                              +1: in general anaerobic activity -in original meaning, i.e. energy production without oxygen- will not raise HR as much as aerobic activity will

                               

                              (it would still raise it a bit of course, e.g. due to heat production.. but I was making a comparison above)

                               

                              all the above is to the best of my understanding, I'm not an exercise physiologist familiar with every little detail