Low HR Training

12

MAF and race pace question (Read 69 times)

bjoiner


    Hi guys,

     

    So I've been doing MAF for most of this year, with a little bit of speed work (about 4-5 weeks) right before each of my last 2 half marathons.  I just had a couple of questions.

     

    My MAF pace has improved dramatically this year from about 11:00 pace to a 8:30-9:00 at (140-150bpm).  I feel a lot stronger too! (It's been a long time since I've been able to run for a year without getting injured!)

     

    My issue is with racing.  My HM PR is a 1:41 (before starting MAF this year).  In my last two Half Marathons, I ran the first 8 or so miles around a 7:50 pace (~1:43:00) and felt great all the way through, but blew up shortly after the 8th mile (calves cramped up, wanted to quit badly).  I've done a fair number of 11-12 mile training runs at an 8:15 pace with good results in practice, but it's like the extra 25 seconds is too much. for me.  I've also noticed that there's a big discrepancy between my MAF heartrate (140-150) and my race pace heart rate (>163) even though the difference in speed doesn't seem like that much.

     

    So my question is, do I just need to add more volume?, more speed work?, keep doing MAF?  I've been working on nutrition so I don't think that it's the issue.  It felt like more of a muscular fatigue issue. (maybe?)

     

    Any advice is greatly appreciated.      

     

    Here's the graph from my last race: (hopefully that link works)

     

    http://www.runningahead.com/logs/1ff38d0c36a64449a0a14db5c1a1e14e/workouts/0abae731d5e643329615aa92f0bd64b8/graphs?x=20&y=201&y1c=0000ff&y2c=990000&y2=82&avg=1&w=640&h=480&rng=10


    Bad Ass

      Why do you think that your race pace HR is > 163?  I ask because my MAF is 143 and I race MP at 155-160 and HMP at 165-170.  Not sure if mine are exact either but I wonder if yours is a bit low (if for a HM) or a bit high (if for a marathon).

      Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

      Blog

      "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

      bjoiner


        Docket_Rocket,

         

        I meant that my avg heart rate at my last HM was in fact 163.  Sounds like that's about on par with yours - maybe a little lower.

         

        I'm kind of new to HR training, so I wasn't sure what to expect come race day.

          What's a MAF HR of 140-150?  I thought your MAF HR was a specific number.  Mine is 136.

           

          My avg HR on my 2 half marathons that I wore my HR strap on was 168 and 170.

           

          What your MAF HR is and what your racing HR is are not necessarily dependent on one another, however there should be a correlation between your MAF pace improving and your race pace improving.

           

          I have a hard time understanding how someone could have a MAF pace as low as 8:30 and not be able to run a half marathon at a 7:50.

           

          My MAF pace is still right around 10:00 pace and my HM PR was at an 8:15 pace (long story on the course being long but my pace was 8:15).  That's 1:45 faster for race pace than my MAF pace.

           

          I personally have always used a 6 mile avg for my MAF pace instead of the 2nd mile, but even using my 2nd mile I'm in the 9:40ish range at MAF and my HM race pace is around 1:30 faster than that.

           

          I think your volume is too low to really be expecting to hold a good pace out to 13.1 miles, I also would like clarification on what a MAF of 140-150 is and what your pace is at your actual specific MAF HR.

          Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

          Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

            Some additional thoughts...

             

            Temperature can play a big part in performance on a particular day.  If the temperature and humidity were high on the day of your race that can slow you down considerably.

             

            Looking at some of your workouts, it does seem like you end up with some considerable HR creep on runs more than 4 or 5 miles if you keep the same pace.  One run I looked at you started out at an 8:45ish pace and the first couple miles were mid 140's on avg HR, but by the time you got to the 5th and 6th miles the avg HR on those miles had climbed up into the upper 150's.  The avg HR was upper 140's, but the amount of HR creep made it seem to me that you don't have the endurance needed to sustain that for a half marathon distance.

             

            I think the key is going to come down to mileage for you.  I would be curious what kind of mileage you were running back when you ran your 1:41 half compared to what you are running now?

            Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

            Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

            bjoiner


              npaden,

               

              Thanks for your response.

               

              "What's a MAF HR of 140-150?  I thought your MAF HR was a specific number.  Mine is 136."

              My MAF HR is 150. (180-30)  I meant to say my MAF zone is 140-150.  I've been experimenting - If I run with a steady heart rate of 140bpm on a track (flat),  I have pace of 9:00.  If I run the same test at 150bpm, I have a pace of about 8:30.

               

              "I have a hard time understanding how someone could have a MAF pace as low as 8:30 and not be able to run a half marathon at a 7:50." 

              The 7:50 pace actually felt pretty comfortable for most of the run up until mile 8.  I guess I was expecting my heart rate to be closer to 150.  But it sounds like 163 isn't out of the expected range.

               

              "I think your volume is too low to really be expecting to hold a good pace out to 13.1 miles"

              I think you might be right on this point.  Just out of curiosity, what would you suggest is a good amount of volume to reach before a half?  (I have another one coming up later this year)

              bjoiner


                "I think the key is going to come down to mileage for you.  I would be curious what kind of mileage you were running back when you ran your 1:41 half compared to what you are running now?"

                 

                It was definitely higher.  I don't have the mileage because that was before I really started tracking such things.  But I would guess ~50mpw

                  Just a shot in the dark, but I would say you should be running 30+ mpw minimum to feel like you could run a decent HM.

                   

                  I've heard before that your weekly volume should be at least double what your expected race distance is, but now sure that I would take that to the bank as super great advice or anything.  That would be closer to an absolute minimum to me and you should be closer to triple the race distance for your weekly volume if you actually want to perform close to your potential.

                   

                  i.e. - 13.1 X 2 = 26.2 minimum mpw, 13.1 X 3 = 39.3 would be more realistic to achieve a decent result.

                   

                  Of course that's easy and works on some distances, but if you are wanting to perform well on a 5K you will need to run more than 15K a week.  Lot's of folks training to run 5 and 10K's put in 60+ mpw.

                   

                  As a general rule, the more mileage the better and that is one of the benefits of MAF running.  You are more likely able to add volume without injuring yourself running easy most of the time.  The drawback is time.  It's hard to find enough hours in the day to run as it is, if you are running slower, it takes even more time.

                  Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                  Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

                    P.S. - I'm about as far from an expert on this as you can get.  Just starting my 2nd year at Low HR training and ran my first ever marathon last month.  Just giving my personal opinion and input.  Take it for what it's worth, probably a lot less than 2 cents!

                    Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                    Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

                    bjoiner


                      npaden,

                       

                      I really appreciate it.  Congrats on your Marathon!  I was skeptical at first of the LHRT, but it's been a long time since I've been able to run for an entire year with no serious injuries.  Hopefully I can start shaving off some time as I continue.  (At least I now have a race  data point to play with. :-) )


                      Bad Ass

                        I agree with npaden about your mileage being the culprit most likely.  My MAF is 143 and most of my runs were at 11:30mm when I ran my PR marathon at 10:25mm at 155HR so I think mine correlates fine.  So, you shouldn't have an issue with your HM at 7:50s if your MAF runs are at the pace you mentioned, unless you don't have enough endurance which I think brings you back to the low mileage issue.

                         

                        Good luck!

                        Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                        Blog

                        "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

                          I agree with npaden about your mileage being the culprit most likely.  My MAF is 143 and most of my runs were at 11:30mm when I ran my PR marathon at 10:25mm at 155HR so I think mine correlates fine.  So, you shouldn't have an issue with your HM at 7:50s if your MAF runs are at the pace you mentioned, unless you don't have enough endurance which I think brings you back to the low mileage issue.

                           

                          Good luck!

                           

                          What I was trying to say is the gap between MAF and race HR is very much an individual thing.  My HM racing avg HR is 33 bpm higher than my MAF rate.  My FM avg HR was 29 bpm higher than my MAF rate.  Your HM racing avg HR is 22 - 27 bpm higher than your MAF and your FM PR avg HR was only 12 bpm over your MAF.  My full marathon avg HR is double the increase that you had.  I think this has more to due with Max HR than it has to do with MAF.

                           

                          The gap between MAF pace and race pace can generally fit inside a set of expectations, i.e. the Using MAF tests as race time predictor thread.

                           

                          http://www.runningahead.com/groups/LOWHRTR/forum/313d42ed8b8e4914bc3bf68a27e29f3f/0

                           

                          Of course there are some outliers to the chart and generally you can somewhat narrow down why a person falls outside the range.

                           

                          I think if bjoiner compared his 5K time based on his MAF pace he might be a lot closer than if he went out and tried to run a full marathon right now because he doesn't have the appropriate base to run the full marathon and possible is a little short on the base to run a half marathon right now.

                          Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                          Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

                          bjoiner


                            So, given that my weekly volume is most likely low.  (And given my past, I'm really scared to ramp it up.)  How quickly can I increase my mileage safely (very conservatively)?  I've heard debates back and forth about the 10% rule but given the law of compounding interest, it seems like this could get out of control pretty quickly.  My next HM is in September, so I don't know if I'm going to be able to hit the mileage by then, but I have another race in January.

                             

                            BTW npaden, you're correct, the 5K time is almost spot on!


                            Consistently Slow

                              So, given that my weekly volume is most likely low.  (And given my past, I'm really scared to ramp it up.)  How quickly can I increase my mileage safely (very conservatively)?  I've heard debates back and forth about the 10% rule but given the law of compounding interest, it seems like this could get out of control pretty quickly.  My next HM is in September, so I don't know if I'm going to be able to hit the mileage by then, but I have another race in January.

                               

                              BTW npaden, you're correct, the 5K time is almost spot on!

                              You should be able to add the mileage with out injure using MAF. Run 6 days a week  28-30  miles. 1 long run and 1 speed workout. June 125---July 135---August 145. Add 2 miles a week to your run each week. Cut back 20% on the 3rd week. I cut back 40%.

                               

                              PS: on those busy days ( most are) run / walk 2 miles. There are no junk miles. It as worked for more than a few of us here.

                              Run until the trail runs out.

                              2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                              50miler 13:26:18

                              Race Less Train More

                               

                              Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                              "The Marble in The Groove"

                               

                              unsolicited chatter

                              http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                                 

                                What I was trying to say is the gap between MAF and race HR is very much an individual thing.  My HM racing avg HR is 33 bpm higher than my MAF rate.  My FM avg HR was 29 bpm higher than my MAF rate.  Your HM racing avg HR is 22 - 27 bpm higher than your MAF and your FM PR avg HR was only 12 bpm over your MAF.  My full marathon avg HR is double the increase that you had.  I think this has more to due with Max HR than it has to do with MAF.

                                 

                                The gap between MAF pace and race pace can generally fit inside a set of expectations, i.e. the Using MAF tests as race time predictor thread.

                                 

                                http://www.runningahead.com/groups/LOWHRTR/forum/313d42ed8b8e4914bc3bf68a27e29f3f/0

                                 

                                Of course there are some outliers to the chart and generally you can somewhat narrow down why a person falls outside the range.

                                 

                                I think if bjoiner compared his 5K time based on his MAF pace he might be a lot closer than if he went out and tried to run a full marathon right now because he doesn't have the appropriate base to run the full marathon and possible is a little short on the base to run a half marathon right now.

                                 

                                this is an interesting issue, these individual differences in HR gap. Smile

                                 

                                as for MAF vs race times, I'm a really big outlier to those charts. no one ever has found a reason as to why that would be, what's your guess? mine's simply that it's because of my high maxHR and high LT HR.

                                 

                                now of course we can accept the claim that MAF HR and LT HR have nothing to do with each other*, however it's pretty much a fact that races depend on LT, so why should you be able to predict 5K race paces from MAF pace? deep unresolvable contradiction here Smile attempt at marathon race pace prediction would be slightly more logical.

                                 

                                *: my opinion on that matter is that they (MAF and LT HR) don't 100% correlate for sure but that doesn't mean that they can't have a connection at all

                                12