Anaerobic Phase HRT (over MAF) Reports & Discussion

jimmyb

posted: 11/12/2008 at 1:19 PM
modified: 11/16/2008 at 4:21 PM

6 miles bike trail 45º/39% humid dp21º sunny warm-up 11:57 110 10:23 123 Fartlek 8:31 161 10:29 150 9:09 163 9:22 162 fartlek time 37:31 during speedplay, I didn't let HR go over 178 (90% MHR) TAPER PLAN I just began my 3-week taper. I'm experimenting with increasing intensity while cutting volume, but maintaining frequency (minus a day): (% of 71 miles I ran 5 weeks out from race): week 1: 67% (24 miles) 5 training days, 2 days rest week 2: 75% (18 miles) 5 training days, 2 days rest week 3: 85% (11 miles) 4 training days, 3 days rest --no run longer than 8-9 miles --hard days are fartlek ( 40 minutes or less), 4-6 mile MRP tempo runs, MAF tests --easy days are 2-3 milers at MAF -10 --final week is all easy miles Last marathon, I experimented with a 2-week taper with last long run two weeks out. That didn't work for me. I didn't feel rested starting the race. I'm taking at least a weeks worth of rest if you add it up, and the easy days are just to maintain frequency. We'll see how it works. --Jimmy

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jimmyb

posted: 11/16/2008 at 4:21 PM
modified: 11/16/2008 at 5:59 PM

Marathon Race Pace tempo run bike trail big wind From W at 26 mph gusting to 33 mph sunny 49º 50% humidity dewpoint 28º warmup 11:28 114 10:42 128 MRP tempo run 8:20 161 7:47 167 7:48 170 8:49 173 (1.16 mi 7:36 pace) 7:58 174 7:50 177 7:56 178 time 56:30 pace 7:53 average HR 171 This is my traditional pre-marathon 7.16 mile tempo run. I almost always do this 2 weeks out, and do it on the same course, averaging 171 bpm HR. Today, the temps were good, but wind was a huge factor. Legs felt pretty fresh. That's my longest run until the marathon. This run tends to be a little faster than the pace I accomplish on race day by 7-10 seconds. We'll see what happens, but it gives me an idea for a pace plan. --Jimmy

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Shiksa

Aerobigal! (thx Jimmy!)

posted: 11/16/2008 at 5:55 PM

I'm looking forward to reading your race report Jimmy. Smile

Stacy
I make no apologies for my liberal use of smiley icons. http://stacyruns.wordpress.com/

jimmyb

posted: 11/16/2008 at 5:58 PM
modified: 11/16/2008 at 5:58 PM

Quote from Shiksa on 11/16/2008 at 5:55 PM:

I'm looking forward to reading your race report Jimmy.

I'll either be a tale of yay or one of woe. Trying new things, and one never knows. The course is a mystery at this point. All I know is that it is hilly, and most likely it will be rainy and cold. Time will tell. At the very least, it will be my first trip to Seattle, and that will be worth a few tidbits of interest. --Jimmy

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jimmyb

posted: 11/19/2008 at 12:05 PM
modified: 11/19/2008 at 12:13 PM

5.04 miles The Farm 29º/32% humid dp7º wind NNW at 14 mph gusting to 24 mph Today, I did downhill repeats, using 80% MHR as a ceiling (160 bpm). There's a .17 mi downhill road in my condo farm (The Farm). It's not so steep that you have to put on the brakes. Nice grade to it, not overly punishing. I was hoping to stay under 160 and be at or a little faster than projected marathon pace. Worked out well. I'm thinking I can use this as an race pace indicator run in the future. During each rest phase, as I ran the switchback streets to slowly get back up the hill, I also did 2 short bursts of speed, about 10-12 seconds long at about 7:00 ish pace. The Hr never climbed over 160 during these bursts, stayed in the low 150's. 2 mile warm up 13:52 110 13:23 117 Downhill Repeats lap time__dist.____pace......avehr.......... rest lap... dist hr 1:22.68__.17 mi__(8:17).......137..............3:52.......131 1:17.65__.16 mi__(7:58)......148..............4:29.......137 1:16.99 __.16 mi__(7:46)......150..............4:37.......142 1:16.23__.16 mi__(7:46).......154..............4:29.......147 1:16.48__.17 mi__(7:36).......154..............4:35.......143 1:15.17__.17 mi__(7:22).......151..............1:52.......143 total distance .99mi ave speed 7:47 ave HR 149 Fun! --Jimmy

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jimmyb

posted: 11/21/2008 at 9:16 PM
modified: 11/21/2008 at 9:17 PM

4 miles tm 1% incline 67º/41% humidity 1.5 mile warmup 12:35 107 5:11 132 Marathon Race Pace intervals --MRP intervals were .15 mile long and run at 7.6 speed (7:53 pace) --rest intervals were at 5.4 speed (11:06). As soon as I saw my HR drop to 136 bpm, I increased speed for the next.03mi then hit the lap button and did the .15 MRP interval. After the last interval, I didn't see 136 again, so I just extended the last rest period until the end. int......aveHR....peakHR.......rest int...aveHR 1:11....157.............164..........1:32...........147 1:11....158.............165..........1:33...........150 1:11....158.............168..........1:47...........149 1:11....160.............166..........2:00...........149 1:11....160.............167..........2:01...........149 1:11....159.............167..........2:07...........149 1:11....160.............169..........4:25...........144 I used the pace I ran in my last MRP run. I had fun doing these. Not too stressful at all. I'm just making this up as I go along. Rest tomorrow! --Jimmy

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C-R

posted: 1/22/2009 at 1:55 PM

Thought I would bump this thread as racing season is approaching (we have some here in March and April). First tempo run today with interesting results but I need some advice. 1 mile warm up below MAF and 1 mile cool down getting below MAF as quickly as possible. Tempo portion Mile Pace AHR 1 - 7:25 154 2 - 7:13 156 3 - 7:18 158 4 - 7:09 162 Here is the question. Is this too fast? Context - My MAF (138) tests are right at 9:00 and I've always been told a good tempo run is at a pace you can hold comfortably for 40-60 minutes. I could have held this pace at least that far but ran at lunch and "The Man" wants me back at my desk. What do you think?

"He conquers who endures" - Persius
"Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

run48

posted: 1/26/2009 at 12:13 PM
modified: 1/26/2009 at 12:40 PM

Quote from C-R on 1/22/2009 at 1:55 PM:

What do you think?

Well, that must have been fun for you. I always found the tempo runs to be a refreshing change. It sounds like you are definitely at a prettly good HR point for your tempo run. I read somewhere that it is really important to have at least a 20 minute warmup and a 20 minute warm down before and after your tempo run. So, that is the only advice I would give, I have read a lot over the past year about tempo runs and it seems that there are different opinions. The anaerobic threshold is somewhere around 85 to 90 percent max HR. It depends on your current fitness, and many other factors, I think. Hadd advises you to start well below that and progressively move it up. I have read other advice that says you get the most benefit by actually running slightly above your anearobic threshold. My max HR is 186 or so. My mAF number is 132. I have found that running tempo runs at an HR=160 is optimal for me. I get really good benefit, and at the same time, it is easy to recover from. In terms of time, my maf pace is in the 10s and my tempo pace is in the 8s. So, they are a couple of minutes per mile apart. It appears that you are about a minute faster for each, so relative to each other, they seem about the same. In the end, i guess it comes down to how it feels, and as you said, could you keep it up for an hour. I have seen advice that the pace should be about your 10k pace, since that is something that takes about and hour to run. I think it its important to stay conservative with the pace, because going a little too fast can really be counter-productive. Whereas going a little too slow, does not really make that much of a difference. I also read that you should keep the mileage to 10 percent or lower of your total mileage for tempo runs

C-R

posted: 2/5/2009 at 12:01 PM

I'm going the HADD route and using his 193 MHR so my LTHR is between 155 and 160. Kept it there for a nice 5.5 miles today. I felt really good during the run. Back to MAF for the rest of the week but this one seems to be right. Has anyone tried the HADD 2400 test? What did you think? MY MAF test from yesterday showed I am getting closer to that 9:00 mark (9:02 avg for 4 miles). SO things seem to be improving.

"He conquers who endures" - Persius
"Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

jimmyb

posted: 2/5/2009 at 11:57 PM

I'm doing an extended MAF base period (this could go a full year) and I thought I'd experiment with using the 2400 test every 10-12 weeks to see how my speed was doing at higher HR's, as I keep working at MAF. I did my first to begin the year. There is a link to my test in my signature. It wasn't too stressful. Doing one every 10-12 weeks won't have an adverse effect on my base-building. I thought the test was fun. --Jimmy

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C-R

posted: 2/6/2009 at 8:27 AM

That was interesting. I realize this is only one stat point but I wonder why your time increased for te 150 BPM segment and the rest decreased? Curious. I will do one of these next week I think if the weather cooperates here in Indy.

"He conquers who endures" - Persius
"Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

jimmyb

posted: 2/6/2009 at 10:53 AM
modified: 2/6/2009 at 10:54 AM

I wondered about that, too, but figured it was an HRM anomaly. If it happens again, it'll probably mean I'm not warming up enough or something like that. --Jimmy

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GMoney

posted: 2/6/2009 at 11:22 AM

You know, Jimmy, it's a shame I didn't recall your 2400 m. testing when I lamented the absence of "fun" in my running. A test like that every 10-12 weeks is a great way for me to inject a (literal) change of pace into my otherwise-MAF pace running and also would have yielded some more productive data than that which I got from my traditional tempo run. As it is, for the last couple of weeks I've been in a groove of alternating walks and MAF runs. Thanks, Rudolf, for helping me re-appreciate the simple pleasures of walking. I'm not following your very low HR protocol yet, but I find that alternating MAF running and walking makes both more enjoyable for me. It also gives me a regular opportunity to un-yoke myself from the HRM and just groove on reality. Next target race: Marine Corps Historic Half Marathon. Fredericksburg, VA. May 17, 2009.

run48

posted: 2/10/2009 at 11:51 AM
modified: 2/10/2009 at 11:56 AM

Last Summer I had fun doing the Hadd test. For me, with an HRmax of about 186, I used the HRs below: 170 160 (Tempo HR) 150 140 130 (MAF HR) The lowest HR happened to be about what my MAF HR is. The HR=160 was about where my optimal tempo run was. I eventually stopped doing the Hadd test because I found it too stressful for me and I did not recover well from it. The 170 HR was tough. I also stopped because I felt like I got enough information from my MAF test and from seeing what pace I could run at my tempo run. I noticed that my tempo pace and the Hadd test pace at HR=160 were always about the same. So, you could take all five points, but just taking two points also reveals a lot of information, and is less stressful. Based on Hadd, I should have run the tempo run at about HR=150, but I found that HR=160 was more beneficial and was not that stressful. This is just me. I am not a high mileage runner right now, and so I probably should not have been doing Hadd tests, but I needed a change. Hadd's advice is to really ramp up the miles before you start doing tempo runs, etc. I am looking forward to someday, being able to do more miles, and longer races. Reading everybodies experience is very inspiring. The idea of doing a half marathon someday, was not even a consideration to me. I just never felt I was that kind of runner. But, I have slowly and progressively gotten more endurance, and now I think to myself, maybe some day. But, for now, I am enjoying the goal of just doing better in my 5ks. I am in no rush, and know that if I keep up what I am doing, that someday, I will do one. I am enjoying the base phase now. Easy miles. It is a nice period and I have no desire to go faster right now. But, on the other hand, in a month or two, I am looking foward to doing tempo runs again and doing 5k races.

Screen name1

posted: 2/10/2009 at 12:59 PM

During most of the schedules outlined in the HADD document, you aren't really running TempoHR. Maybe high end of General Aerobic HR. I followed HADD between Chicago (10/12/08) and Houston (1/18/09). My maxHR is 187/188. So my ILTHR=155. I did all of my runs with max limits between 140-155. Towards the end, I added a couple of miles @160. And maybe 2-4 miles (total during cycle) @ 165. I might have run maybe 20-30 miles (out of around 600) with HR 160 or greater. It produced great results. I found what I liked about it, was that you weren't running at the same HR/pace every single day. It broke it up a little bit. One day I'd run 75 minutes @ HR155, next day 60 min @ HR140, etc. It was nice to be able to run 7:2x for a couple of runs.... You should note that you should be up to at least 50mpw of slow running (for me that would be <hr140) before="" jumping="" into="" the="" listed="" "joe"="" schedules.="" basically="" your="" base="" hr="" is="" max-48bpm.="" my="" maf="144," but="" my="" basehr="" is="" hadd="" was="" 140="" which="" was="" lower="" than="" maf.="" even="" the="" hr145="" runs="" could="" be="" considered="" maf="" runs....="" i've="" also="" come="" to="" appreciate="" progression="" runs,="" i="" do="" all="" of="" my="" runs="" like="" that="" now.="" i="" usually="" start="" out="" keep="" my="" hr=""></hr140)>< 130="" for="" the="" 1st="" mile.="" then="" slowly="" ramp="" up="" to="" what="" even="" the="" maxhr="" for="" the="" run="" is="" by="" last="" mile="" or="" two.="" i'm="" following="" pfitz="" for="" boston="" (hopefully="" might="" have="" a="" slight="" foot="" problem="" right="" now),="" and="" he="" has="" recovery="" @="" />< 76% maxhr, general aerobic 70-81%, mlr/long run 74-84%, mp 79-88%, lt 82-91%, vo2max 93-95%. so after a first mile under hr130 on an mlr/lr my 2nd mile is usually ~138 and i'll gradually increase it each mile until the end when i'm @ 156/157, which is about 6-8bpm below my mphr and about 10-12bpm below my lt hr. so i would go from a ~9:00 first mile, down to running 8:15-8:30/miles all the way down to 7:1x miles at the end... 76%="" maxhr,="" general="" aerobic="" 70-81%,="" mlr/long="" run="" 74-84%,="" mp="" 79-88%,="" lt="" 82-91%,="" vo2max="" 93-95%.="" so="" after="" a="" first="" mile="" under="" hr130="" on="" an="" mlr/lr="" my="" 2nd="" mile="" is="" usually="" ~138="" and="" i'll="" gradually="" increase="" it="" each="" mile="" until="" the="" end="" when="" i'm="" @="" 156/157,="" which="" is="" about="" 6-8bpm="" below="" my="" mphr="" and="" about="" 10-12bpm="" below="" my="" lt="" hr.="" so="" i="" would="" go="" from="" a="" ~9:00="" first="" mile,="" down="" to="" running="" 8:15-8:30/miles="" all="" the="" way="" down="" to="" 7:1x="" miles="" at="" the=""></ 76% maxhr, general aerobic 70-81%, mlr/long run 74-84%, mp 79-88%, lt 82-91%, vo2max 93-95%. so after a first mile under hr130 on an mlr/lr my 2nd mile is usually ~138 and i'll gradually increase it each mile until the end when i'm @ 156/157, which is about 6-8bpm below my mphr and about 10-12bpm below my lt hr. so i would go from a ~9:00 first mile, down to running 8:15-8:30/miles all the way down to 7:1x miles at the end...>

Low HR Training

"Anaerobic" Phase HRT (over MAF) Reports & Discussion (Read 5275 times)