Low HR Training

123

musings on MAF HR (Read 1382 times)

    Jimmy

     

    I use a program called SportTracks to log and quantify my workouts. The program is set up to have other "plugin" program modules that are developed and maintained by other users and programmers. One of these "plugins" that I use on a daily basis is called "Training Load".

     

    In the Training Load plugin, the program uses your HR information, duration and activity to develope a Training Stress Score (TSS) and assigns a "TRIMP" number to your workout, then uses that to calculate the training stress and accumulation of fatigue (Cronic Training Load CTL).

     

    It also calculates a Training Stress Balance (a "Freshness" indicator) for before a workout and after the workout. I can look at this to see a quantification of the stresses my body is under and cross reference that with what I am ACTUALLY feeling before and after a workout. I can attest from using this program and plugin that your statement is absolutely spot on, every training step does affect your bodies traininig loads.

     

     

    I saw training load formulas before but none of them convinced me particularly... the numbers/scores assigned to workout levels seemed arbitrary to me. I suppose it would be ok for a general guess but I don't need a program for such a generic evaluation, I just ask my body. I guess I don't feel a need to put into numbers how my body feels on a given day. that's maybe just like someone else doesn't feel a need to use a HRM to put the training intensity into numbers. Smile (I do have the need for this myself.)

     

    anyway, if using such a program, then I'm sure that a 2mile easy walk at 80bpm would add 1-2 points to overall score but that's just like a run is 153.2 or 153.3 average HR. does that 0.1 difference in average HR matter? not really... the best word would be: not practical.

    jimmyb


      Jimmy

       

      I use a program called SportTracks to log and quantify my workouts. The program is set up to have other "plugin" program modules that are developed and maintained by other users and programmers. One of these "plugins" that I use on a daily basis is called "Training Load".

       

      In the Training Load plugin, the program uses your HR information, duration and activity to develope a Training Stress Score (TSS) and assigns a "TRIMP" number to your workout, then uses that to calculate the training stress and accumulation of fatigue (Cronic Training Load CTL).

       

      It also calculates a Training Stress Balance (a "Freshness" indicator) for before a workout and after the workout. I can look at this to see a quantification of the stresses my body is under and cross reference that with what I am ACTUALLY feeling before and after a workout. I can attest from using this program and plugin that your statement is absolutely spot on, every training step does affect your bodies traininig loads.

       

      Thanks for posting this, BT. I will check it out.

      --Jimmy

      Log    PRs

      jimmyb


        thanks for your reply Smile yeah it would be great to become Cmonstein and figure out the Grand Unified Theory of running. LOL. Cool

         

        neat stuff about MAF as recovery in anaerobic phase, this is well in line with what I see as working for me. I mean, hard run... then low intensity runs to recover and this just so happens to be near the MAFHR (180-age, if I don't subtract 5bpm). maybe not coincidence.


        I find it strange that a beginner would find a 20min MAF workout hard, but then who knows, maybe I just don't know anyone who's in such a bad shape except for people with serious illnesses.


        as for MAF test as a guide to detection of over training. I found in the past (about 1 year ago) that there are signs that come on before the pace at low HR (such as MAFHR) will start to decline. this is why I've been thinking about this topic lately with all the higher mileage I've been doing.


        I do have another question in mind specifically for you. I was looking through your MAF test log and at one point you had 141 as MAF then at another time 126. was 141 correlating with your recovery intensity then? if yes then that would be interesting info to me, as there is a 15bpm difference which is not small. could mean that being well trained can have such a big effect even on recovery HR. also, I'm asking about this because I haven't had a chance to know this from experience, you see Smile


        about training load: sitting at my PC I still have my heart beating and my RQ is probably pretty low, that is, probably close to 0.70. does this count as training? Smile I don't think that training will elicit much improvement in pace if only working out below a "threshold" that could be MAF-10 or 50% vo2max or whatever. of course, it is not all black and white as it would still be useful for preparing your body for ultrarunning. so your average pace could actually improve for 100miles. (but I doubt it would improve for a "traditional" race distance as it would not be too specific training for that.)

         

        Some beginners can be walking slow and their HR will go up to their MAF, and beyond. So, yes, a 20 minute MAF workout might be a test for some individuals, and is why when some of them start running, before they ever developed themselves with walking, get injured or sick. Keep your eye on beginner's forums. There are a lot of success stories but also a lot of carnage.

         

        C sends me back on a trip through my running logs!

         

        Looks like in 2006, when I had a 141 MAF, I used MAF-5 for recovery runs in the first part of the year. In the fall, I went to MAF-10 and below as a ceiling for an experiment with 100-mile weeks. I figured I'd take some stress out of it. For recovery, I used MAF-15 to MAF-22. This experiment led to my current marathon PR of 3:22.

         

        In 2007, after a race in May,  I just felt exhausted and beat up from racing and high heart rates, Despite a PR in that race, I chose to lower my MAF for awhile to 128 and train with that. I used different HR's below that for recovery. I raised it to 134 near the end of the year, and finished with that, using 129 and below for recovery. Then in the spring, I went back to 141, and entered an anaerobic period leading up to the Vermont City Marathon, where I ran a very good race for me in hot weather. I used anywhere from MAF to MAF-20 as recovery.

         

        I stayed with 141 through to to my final marathon in November. That was the period where my personal stress levels went through the roof, and I overtrained. I was using 129 and below for recovery.That was the end of my 180-age+5 period!

         

        Again, I ran a lot of different recovery HR's--but mostly below MAF and some at it.  It was a logical choice and a one based on how tired I felt during training. It had nothing to do with some recovery intensity I had discovered.

         

        The sitting at your computer as training load question is funny, but it also is a good one that points to the other part of training load---life stress. You begin training with a certain level of life stress that you are used to, and you hit a certain load from your training that gets your aerobic system moving in a positive direction. Then something in life comes along that raises your stress levels to a place that is unusual in nature and length. Those stress hormones that pump into your system from your adrenals are identical to the ones that pump into your body when you do hard anaerobic workouts, or overly long aerobic ones that overstress you. The stress could come from your job, your family, a tax collector, your COMPUTERCool! Whatever. This stress comes along and suddenly you might find your MAF tests plateauing or regressing, seemingly out of nowhere. This happens even though you had been progressing and the training load was fine. When this happens, overtraining begins, and the body begins to break down. This is what happened to me in the fall of 2008. My MAF tests plateaued and backed up a hair, and they would not get down to the place I usually got them before the marathon. Due to my inexperience with this and glossing over of the overtraining section in Training For Endurance (what me overtrain?), I didn't give much weight to this plateau/regression and tanked in the marathon at mile 16. After that, my times got even worse. I've been trying to get back ever since, as the subsequent two years have been full of stress. I have managed to come back a certain amount, despite a few setbacks during stress.

         

        The first big stress was moving to Georgia. The move, plus the heat (and maybe the slightly higher elevation--I'm not sure about this--I live 1000 feet higher than I used to), equaled regression. I cut back on my training, and eventually I started to progress again.

         

        I was going along fine, progressing well into the beginning of last summer, when the worst stress I ever felt came along ( I want to keep private on what it was).My MAF tests tanked to a level I had never seen--and quickly!!!.  Immediately, I cut back on my training, thus making total load less. My tests rebounded nicely and quickly to almost the levels they were before the stress. You can check out my 2010 MAF tests if you want in my log.

         

        This is why I am such a big believer in the MAF test, and recommend it to anyone, even if all they do are puke-inducing intervals. If you look at your running life as a marathon, and not a brief race that only happens today, then the test is an invaluable tool to help navigate through the inevitable hard times that come along. I figure if I run until I'm dead, and I live to be 70, then that is a 27 year running career. To think one can do the same training day in and out without adjustments, and that life will not affect one's running along the way is an illusion. The MAF test is my friend. Cool

         

         

        --Jimmy

        Log    PRs

        jimmyb


          I forgot to address this part of your post:

           

          "
          as for MAF test as a guide to detection of over training. I found in the past (about 1 year ago) that there are signs that come on before the pace at low HR (such as MAFHR) will start to decline. this is why I've been thinking about this topic lately with all the higher mileage I've been doing."

           

          What are these signs?

           

          (Just curious--to see if it matches mine--do they involve beings from The Pleiades beaming into your room when you're sleeping, waking you up and saying "Cut back you stupid earthling!")

           

          Cool

          --Jimmy

          Log    PRs


          Consistently Slow

            Thanks for the insight,jimmy. I may do a maff test in the morning. I have been  getting  a little woozy after running a mile or so. Head clears in the 2 mile.The warm up maybe a little to fast. HR monitor erratic. Just finished cleaning it. Will wet it good in the morning. Hopefully not a blood pressure issue.Thrill in the hills marathon(trail) Saturday.

            Run until the trail runs out.

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            jimmyb


              Thanks for the insight,jimmy. I may do a maff test in the morning. I have been  getting  a little woozy after running a mile or so. Head clears in the 2 mile.The warm up maybe a little to fast. HR monitor erratic. Just finished cleaning it. Will wet it good in the morning. Hopefully not a blood pressure issue.Thrill in the hills marathon(trail) Saturday.

               

              You're welcome, Ron.

              How long has that been happening?

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                I understand that some people will get to MAFHR just by walking but would be that 20 min walk a hard workout for them? I somehow thought that the intensity belonging to MAF is never really a hard workout. of course if someone has some joint issues or is very ill that's different. then any kind of moving around can be hard.


                thanks for bringing me with you on this trip. Smile I see you say that there was no specific recovery intensity. to me running right at the MAF HR seems to be it, with the effect that it helps me recover through boosting fat burning. it feels really good. also it feels like I can't overtrain if I just do MAF running and nothing else.

                (joint or other structural stress is still possible but even that's less likely because fat burning keeps you healthier. so even though I used to put a lot of load on my ITB unknowingly, it never became a real problem with these runs.)

                 

                I don't have a lot of experience with the life stress affecting running. I did have some emotional stress at one point last year but it did not seem to have any effect on MAF pace. running itself actually seemed to help with the stress. and I was able to keep progressing.

                 

                I read elevation doesn't matter until you're up at 5-6000 feet altitude.

                 

                as for the overtraining signs even before pace would start to decline, I don't know how much of it is individual but for me the main ones were the following:

                 

                RHR going high and staying there except after runs, then it's unusually low for a while; for no reason feeling of agitation and obsession(over running, running performances, etc.); sore throat (not necessarily a cold, just an almost constant feeling in the throat); slight discomfort in the chest (sometimes palpitations); legs feeling a bit heavy during the day (not just after workout); on rest day feeling like total crap (not crap on days when there was a workout - was almost like a kind of addiction going on); hard to fall asleep (though I never had a problem with sleeping after managing to fall asleep).

                 

                overall not too horrible, but definitely noticeable stuff.  I suppose it would be a lot more horrible if continuing with the overtraining. I didn't know what to make of all that until my pace started to go crap. then I went MAF'ing and recovered and all the above disappeared and my pace was back to normal. then I understood it was all linked.

                 

                there was another period in my training later when all the above started happening again but I remembered this experience and I managed to stop it in time. (yeah, I managed it by cutting back on training intensity...)

                 

                how many of these match yours? nah, mine don't involve aliens. Smile

                jimmyb



                  I understand that some people will get to MAFHR just by walking but would be that 20 min walk a hard workout for them? I somehow thought that the intensity belonging to MAF is never really a hard workout. of course if someone has some joint issues or is very ill that's different. then any kind of moving around can be hard.


                  thanks for bringing me with you on this trip. Smile I see you say that there was no specific recovery intensity. to me running right at the MAF HR seems to be it, with the effect that it helps me recover through boosting fat burning. it feels really good. also it feels like I can't overtrain if I just do MAF running and nothing else.

                  (joint or other structural stress is still possible but even that's less likely because fat burning keeps you healthier. so even though I used to put a lot of load on my ITB unknowingly, it never became a real problem with these runs.)

                   

                  I don't have a lot of experience with the life stress affecting running. I did have some emotional stress at one point last year but it did not seem to have any effect on MAF pace. running itself actually seemed to help with the stress. and I was able to keep progressing.

                   

                  I read elevation doesn't matter until you're up at 5-6000 feet altitude.

                   

                  as for the overtraining signs even before pace would start to decline, I don't know how much of it is individual but for me the main ones were the following:

                   

                  RHR going high and staying there except after runs, then it's unusually low for a while; for no reason feeling of agitation and obsession(over running, running performances, etc.); sore throat (not necessarily a cold, just an almost constant feeling in the throat); slight discomfort in the chest (sometimes palpitations); legs feeling a bit heavy during the day (not just after workout); on rest day feeling like total crap (not crap on days when there was a workout - was almost like a kind of addiction going on); hard to fall asleep (though I never had a problem with sleeping after managing to fall asleep).

                   

                  overall not too horrible, but definitely noticeable stuff.  I suppose it would be a lot more horrible if continuing with the overtraining. I didn't know what to make of all that until my pace started to go crap. then I went MAF'ing and recovered and all the above disappeared and my pace was back to normal. then I understood it was all linked.

                   

                  there was another period in my training later when all the above started happening again but I remembered this experience and I managed to stop it in time. (yeah, I managed it by cutting back on training intensity...)

                   

                  how many of these match yours? nah, mine don't involve aliens. Smile

                   

                  Do they have alien abductions in Hungary?

                   

                  Interesting set of symptoms. For me it was an overall feeling of fatique, a bit of dull pain in lower right back, and a bit dead-leggy, and of course one massive death march at the Seattle Marathon.

                   

                  Running at MAF can be a hard workout, depends how long you run. 20 minutes might be a hard run for someone, but if you're Dean Karnazes, maybe an 8 hour run at MAF would be. I ran 2:21 the other day at MAF and I could feel it in my body afterwords, not a soreness, but a tiredness.

                  That's a hard workout for me. I feel it after 90 minutes, but it is much less then the 2:21. A 50 minute recovery run at MAF doesn't feel hard at all.

                  You can over-train running at MAF if you run too much volume too soon. By the same token, running at MAF reduces the probability of over-training and injury as compared to running same volume above MAF.

                   

                  --Jimmy

                  Log    PRs

                    they don't. this is a peaceful country. Smile

                     

                    as for symptoms, yeah interesting.. I didn't feel this overall fatigue. still, my pace went crap. I was pretty upset about it.

                     

                    sure, 8 hours at MAF is hard, but I was talking about 20minutes, I think you have to be seriously ill for 20mins at MAF to be hard.

                     

                    as for overtraining at MAF, I partially disagree:

                     

                    if it is "pure" MAF running and nothing else, I don't think you can overtrain the body in general, including the cardiovascular system, because not many stress hormones will ever be released. but of course depending on the state of your joints, structural overtraining* could still happen.

                     

                    *I couldn't find a better expression for this now

                    jimmyb


                      they don't. this is a peaceful country. Smile

                       

                      as for symptoms, yeah interesting.. I didn't feel this overall fatigue. still, my pace went crap. I was pretty upset about it.

                       

                      sure, 8 hours at MAF is hard, but I was talking about 20minutes, I think you have to be seriously ill for 20mins at MAF to be hard.

                       

                      as for overtraining at MAF, I partially disagree:

                       

                      if it is "pure" MAF running and nothing else, I don't think you can overtrain the body in general, including the cardiovascular system, because not many stress hormones will ever be released. but of course depending on the state of your joints, structural overtraining* could still happen.

                       

                      *I couldn't find a better expression for this now

                       

                      Or seriously out of shape with one of those resting RQ's of 100% sugar.

                      Don't take my parameters as something I set in stone, 20 minutes to 8 Hours. It's more figurative.

                      Everyone has their upper limits at any particular time of fitness and health. You can over-train running just at MAF, if

                      you exceed these upper limits too often. These limits can change with the amount of stress, and also during hotter weather.

                       

                      The MAF test was telling me  something was off long before I had the symptoms.

                       

                      --Jimmy

                      Log    PRs

                        Or seriously out of shape with one of those resting RQ's of 100% sugar.

                        Don't take my parameters as something I set in stone, 20 minutes to 8 Hours. It's more figurative.

                        Everyone has their upper limits at any particular time of fitness and health. You can over-train running just at MAF, if

                        you exceed these upper limits too often. These limits can change with the amount of stress, and also during hotter weather.

                         

                        The MAF test was telling me  something was off long before I had the symptoms.

                         

                        --Jimmy

                         

                         

                        of course I get that it's just examples. 20mins just seems such a short time at MAF. at some higher HR, it could easily be too much. 100% sugar RQ at rest wow, that person must have some serious symptoms at that point. I remember you gave me a link to a maffetone book in google books, where it had a table of RQs with example symptoms. the lower the resting RQ the less symptoms and at a point none (i.e. person was healthy).

                         

                        interesting that for you the pace was the first to go before any other symptoms.

                        jimmyb


                          of course I get that it's just examples.

                           

                          interesting that for you the pace was the first to go before any other symptoms.

                           

                          Of course, you smartypants. Cool

                           

                          It wasn't that it was a huge loss of pace either--really more of a plateau. There was loss of aerobic speed during the summer, after the marathon in May. At the time, I attributed it to the two weeks of recovery after the race, and subsequent overall lower volume. Life stress begin to increase during the summer and lasted through the fall.  My pace just got stuck in the 9:40-10:00 range. The symptoms didn't show up until a month out from the marathon. I remember doing 3 MAF tests on 3 subsequent days outdoors (for fun), and from there on, I started to feel the changes.

                           

                          If I could go back with my current knowledge, I would have given the regression an initial plateauing great weight, and cut my volume to the barebones during that summer, avoided any racing or anaerobic, and built slowly to find the right volume for that particular marathon training load+life stress load. I would also have made a different plan for the marathon, and attempted a slower pace. On another level, I wouldn't change a thing, because I believe what I learned during that period is the key to being able to run the rest of my life with lesser probability of setbacks, OT and injury.

                           

                          I'm not sure about your history exactly, except you have written about a period where you felt you had over-trained, and attempted MAF training for 6 weeks. If you have some time and energy, perhaps you could tell us the story of when you began running, what you were doing when you OT-ed (volume, pacing, etc.), and how you ended up here. If you have already, just repost it here, if you could. Tell us "The Story Of C: The Hungarian Smartypants" Cool

                           

                          Thanks, C.

                          --Jimmy

                           

                          P.S. I'm a "smartysocks".

                          Log    PRs

                            Of course, you smartypants. Cool

                             

                            It wasn't that it was a huge loss of pace either--really more of a plateau. There was loss of aerobic speed during the summer, after the marathon in May. At the time, I attributed it to the two weeks of recovery after the race, and subsequent overall lower volume. Life stress begin to increase during the summer and lasted through the fall.  My pace just got stuck in the 9:40-10:00 range. The symptoms didn't show up until a month out from the marathon. I remember doing 3 MAF tests on 3 subsequent days outdoors (for fun), and from there on, I started to feel the changes.

                             

                            If I could go back with my current knowledge, I would have given the regression an initial plateauing great weight, and cut my volume to the barebones during that summer, avoided any racing or anaerobic, and built slowly to find the right volume for that particular marathon training load+life stress load. I would also have made a different plan for the marathon, and attempted a slower pace. On another level, I wouldn't change a thing, because I believe what I learned during that period is the key to being able to run the rest of my life with lesser probability of setbacks, OT and injury.

                             

                            I'm not sure about your history exactly, except you have written about a period where you felt you had over-trained, and attempted MAF training for 6 weeks. If you have some time and energy, perhaps you could tell us the story of when you began running, what you were doing when you OT-ed (volume, pacing, etc.), and how you ended up here. If you have already, just repost it here, if you could. Tell us "The Story Of C: The Hungarian Smartypants" Cool

                             

                            Thanks, C.

                            --Jimmy

                             

                            P.S. I'm a "smartysocks".

                             

                             

                             

                            hi there, smartysocks Cool

                             

                            what do you mean by that you started to feel the changes after 3 MAF tests on subsequent days? did the tests show there was something wrong, or do you mean something else?

                             

                            and yes I know what you mean by how it taught you a lot. I feel the same way about it teaching me a lot about my running.

                             

                            ok as for The Story Of C: The Hungarian Smartypants... I didn't write too many details about this before. but it is no secret. Smile


                            so it starts here: when I started running in September 2009, I did a 6 week couch to 5k program. a run-walk program basically. after that I did my first 5K run (without walk breaks woohoo!). from then I was running without walk breaks, and I started to build volume, from 10mpw to 22 in about 2 months.

                             

                            I was using a HRM almost from the start and I was trying to bring my HR lower after two of those 5K runs, because I decided that the 185-195 bpm range I would run at was too high. at the end of the runs I wanted to feel like I could turn around and repeat the entire run without trouble and I did not feel like that at 195. at 185 I could have done so but I didn't feel it would be easy. and I thought that was a problem.

                             

                            I first tried to run in a 175-179 HR "zone" and that was the first time I felt I could easily repeat the entire run and I felt so good, the run felt so easy and I got hooked at this point. I started to actually LIKE running. so then, I kept trying to bring the HR lower just because the lower numbers looked so "cool" and I kept improving nicely. I selected a lower HR "zone" every time I improved my pace at the HR "zone" I was training at. I went from 175-179 to 160-164 this way in a bit less than 2 months.

                             

                            then I improved again and then I increased volume to 28-30mpw or so. I also changed the training a bit. I used to run everything in the same low-ish HR zone (and maybe 1 faster run every 2 weeks in the 175-185 zone). now I was sometimes running in even lower HR zones (155-159 or 150-154), sometimes higher (170+) and sometimes just in the 160's. a bit more mixed up. but the majority of the runs were still usually below 165. the pace was whatever it ended up being. but I kept an eye on it. it was usually in the 11's and 12's. as a comparison I was able to run 5K hard at a pace inside 9min/mile (8: xx pace).

                             

                            when I started doing the 28-30mpw I went from 4 days a week to 5 days a week as well and I introduced runs longer than 6miles. (1 long run per week, starting from 9miles.) I initially felt this was a big jump from the 4 days/22mpw runs with a max of 6miles. I had to eat and sleep a lot more for the first week of this new schedule. then sleep and appetite returned to normal and everything was well for a few weeks. I again started to get better pace at the lower HR's (but I think not so at the higher zones).

                             

                            but after that, I got the above mentioned symptoms and about 1-2 weeks later (can't remember exact times) my pace started to go bad. it got slower by about 1min/mile or so. example, 155-159 zone now had me running 14min/mile even though it was a bit faster than 13min/mile before, 160-164 had me around 13 (previously around 12 and sometimes even in the 11's). and for the HR's below 155 it went real bad, 15min/mile pace (the latter was around MAF HR).

                             

                            this was just 5 months after I started running... and that was when I found out about the maffetone method and this forum. (I'm trying to remember how I started reading about maffetone. but I can't remember right now. I think I found this forum through some google search about maffetone?)

                             

                            I already knew I was overtraining and I'd already cut back on volume by this time. the problem still wouldn't resolve. it was not something that would just go away in a couple of days.

                             

                            then when I found out about MAF and this forum, I decided to try the maffetone version of base building because I managed to "burn" myself with the previous "method". I say it in quotes as there was no real method or plan behind what I'd been doing as training. I was just keeping an eye on improvement but no training method other than trying to run at lower HR's and trying to build some sort of base by upping mileage.

                             

                            oh, actually, I recall a guideline was me trying to get under 65% of heart rate reserve. in other words, the goal was to be able to run under 65%. I wanted to try a training plan based on HR but it had runs under 65% and I could not do that when I was a beginner. I could 4 months later, but just before I decided to start that plan I managed to run into the overtraining zone. lol...

                             

                            65% HRR was around 155bpm for me at that time.

                             

                            anyway, at this point, I tried the base building as per maffetone method and then you know the rest. Smile

                             

                            (which is: MAF base building, recovered me back to old paces. then mix of MAF HR and 1-2 hard runs weekly, worked awesome for improvements. then again LHR base building but by Hadd but I did that one "wrong" and no improvements in pace. right after that, low mileage with a lot of hard runs and a lot of improvement, then a long winter base building and that's where I am now.)

                             

                            also, now my recovery runs are ~11 min/mile. sometimes a bit inside 11 (i.e. faster). this is also my pace at MAF HR. I've come a long way! of course still a lot of work to do! Cool

                            jimmyb


                              Thanks for the excellent recounting, C.

                              About the 3 MAF tests. It was right after doing 3 outdoor tests on 3 consecutive days (one per day) that I began to feel something in my body. SO, it was at about that time that I began to feel it. The tests weren't necessarily the cause.

                              The tests got worse  each day. Not that I lost fitness from day to day, but it did show that a 5 mile MAF test on top of 2 warm-up miles wasn't an easy recovery run at the time. I was getting tired.

                               

                              --Jimmy

                              Log    PRs

                                Thanks for the excellent recounting, C.

                                About the 3 MAF tests. It was right after doing 3 outdoor tests on 3 consecutive days (one per day) that I began to feel something in my body. SO, it was at about that time that I began to feel it. The tests weren't necessarily the cause.

                                The tests got worse  each day. Not that I lost fitness from day to day, but it did show that a 5 mile MAF test on top of 2 warm-up miles wasn't an easy recovery run at the time. I was getting tired.

                                 

                                --Jimmy

                                 

                                 

                                no problem, I hope I didn't make it too boring. Smile

                                 

                                interesting about those 3 days. that MAF was 141, right? I see you're happy doing doubles at a MAF of 126 now. Smile

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