I took up running July 2012 (so less than 18 months ago), but after an initial surge I don’t feel that I am progressing, ie getting faster.
My first 8 weeks of running were just to get enough miles under my belt to be able to run my first 10k in September 2012 (posted 48:47) even though i’d never ran more than 4 miles before the race.
Although i had played football (soccer) and attended a gym for most of my adult life. 'm currently only 150lbs / 5'7" and have never had any real weight issues.
The following 10 weeks were about getting more miles on the board ahead of my 2nd 10k in December (ran in 44:04)
I thought this PB stuff was easy, even though I was lucky to be running 10 miles a week plus one circuit training session at the gym.
I then signed up for a Half Marathon to be run in May, so I spent 4 months tackling knee issues/physio trips and training for the Half Marathon, which I completed in 1:42:16.
Following on the from HM I posted two 5k Parkrun times in June and July of 20:52.
For a 41 year old in their first year of running I didn’t think I had some bad numbers on the board, but I wanted to go faster.
I have since spent this summer attending speed, interval and hill sessions with a local running club being convinced short and sharp stuff is what is required to get quicker. (run faster to get faster) On reflection I think whilst that helps, its not wholly correct.
In September and October and I ran another 10k which I (just) PB’ed at 43:50 and tried Parkrun 5k again, but posted a disappointing (for me) 21:14. I really thought i’d beat my 5k time after all that speed work.
Interspersed between the speed sessions have been a few trail, fell and cross country races. Its these races that are the ones that have convinced me i’m missing core stamina.
During these races, my legs haven’t really been the problem, its been my heart/breathing. Really blowing, especially going up hill.
For the stats geeks, my resting heart rate is around 46bpm with my racing/training recorded max HR at around 185bpm.
Over this year i’ve recorded the following heart rates
5k PB: 165-170
10k PB 170
6 Mile XC 160-165
4 Mile Trunce Trail race: 165-170
7 Mile Salt Cellar Fell race: 160-170
13.1 Mile HM: 155-160 (1st half) rising upto 165-170
So during most of those races i’m between 160bpm (86%) and 170 (91%)??
Research on the internet found me reading about Dr.Phil Maffetone and his theories and subsequently to this forum.
So my 180 formula would be 180-42 (soon to be) then minus another 5 for being non-progressing. Fair to side on caution?
This gives me 133bpm as my upper and training range of 123-133bpm.
Yesterday I undertook my first MAF treadmill test to see where i'm at.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/403884706
15 mins warmup on the treadmill
1st MAF Mile: 8:30
2nd: 8:33
3rd: 8:35
4th: 8:39
5th 9:03
10 mins warm down
The slower 5th mile was my fault, think I dropped the pace too quickly and ended up a few BPM lower than MAF for most of that mile.
I think the first mile was a little off as I was struggling to find the right pace on the treadmill to maintain MAF.
So 8:36 first mile MAF just about matches up to the charts, especially for 5k (my PB 20:52, chart 20:58). But i'm a little down on the Half Marathon (PB 1:42:16, chart 1:36 to 1:39)
So my plan now is to stick to MAF training and see what happens. The next thing in the diary is a a Half Marathon at the beginning of April.
I'm only able to get out two, sometimes three times a week though due to various family commitments, so I only usually put about 15 miles on the clock. I'm hoping this will be enough. I'm thinking that i'm going to stick to the treadmill to start with as I live in the one of the hilliest cities in the UK, so trying keep under MAF when running 8:30 is going to be tough up those hills. There just aren't many flat bits.
I'm hoping that once i've got my pace down at MAF I will then be able to get outside.
Thanks for listening, would love to hear people's thoughts.
Mick
I took up running July 2012 (so less than 18 months ago), but after an initial surge I don’t feel that I am progressing, ie getting faster. My first 8 weeks of running were just to get enough miles under my belt to be able to run my first 10k in September 2012 (posted 48:47) even though i’d never ran more than 4 miles before the race. Although i had played football (soccer) and attended a gym for most of my adult life. 'm currently only 150lbs / 5'7" and have never had any real weight issues. The following 10 weeks were about getting more miles on the board ahead of my 2nd 10k in December (ran in 44:04) I thought this PB stuff was easy, even though I was lucky to be running 10 miles a week plus one circuit training session at the gym. I then signed up for a Half Marathon to be run in May, so I spent 4 months tackling knee issues/physio trips and training for the Half Marathon, which I completed in 1:42:16. Following on the from HM I posted two 5k Parkrun times in June and July of 20:52. For a 41 year old in their first year of running I didn’t think I had some bad numbers on the board, but I wanted to go faster. I have since spent this summer attending speed, interval and hill sessions with a local running club being convinced short and sharp stuff is what is required to get quicker. (run faster to get faster) On reflection I think whilst that helps, its not wholly correct. In September and October and I ran another 10k which I (just) PB’ed at 43:50 and tried Parkrun 5k again, but posted a disappointing (for me) 21:14. I really thought i’d beat my 5k time after all that speed work. Interspersed between the speed sessions have been a few trail, fell and cross country races. Its these races that are the ones that have convinced me i’m missing core stamina. During these races, my legs haven’t really been the problem, its been my heart/breathing. Really blowing, especially going up hill. For the stats geeks, my resting heart rate is around 46bpm with my racing/training recorded max HR at around 185bpm. Over this year i’ve recorded the following heart rates 5k PB: 165-170 10k PB 170 6 Mile XC 160-165 4 Mile Trunce Trail race: 165-170 7 Mile Salt Cellar Fell race: 160-170 13.1 Mile HM: 155-160 (1st half) rising upto 165-170 So during most of those races i’m between 160bpm (86%) and 170 (91%)?? Research on the internet found me reading about Dr.Phil Maffetone and his theories and subsequently to this forum. So my 180 formula would be 180-42 (soon to be) then minus another 5 for being non-progressing. Fair to side on caution? This gives me 133bpm as my upper and training range of 123-133bpm. Yesterday I undertook my first MAF treadmill test to see where i'm at. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/403884706 15 mins warmup on the treadmill 1st MAF Mile: 8:30 2nd: 8:33 3rd: 8:35 4th: 8:39 5th 9:03 10 mins warm down The slower 5th mile was my fault, think I dropped the pace too quickly and ended up a few BPM lower than MAF for most of that mile. I think the first mile was a little off as I was struggling to find the right pace on the treadmill to maintain MAF. So 8:30 first mile MAF just about matches up to the charts, especially for 5k (my PB 20:52, chart 20:58). But i'm a little down on the Half Marathon (PB 1:42:16, chart 1:36 to 1:39) So my plan now is to stick to MAF training and see what happens. The next thing in the diary is a a Half Marathon at the beginning of April. I'm only able to get out two, sometimes three times a week though due to various family commitments, so I only usually put about 15 miles on the clock. I'm hoping this will be enough. I'm thinking that i'm going to stick to the treadmill to start with as I live in the one of the hilliest cities in the UK, so trying keep under MAF when running 8:30 is going to be tough up those hills. There just aren't many flat bits. I'm hoping that once i've got my pace down at MAF I will then be able to get outside. Thanks for listening, would love to hear people's thoughts. Mick
So 8:30 first mile MAF just about matches up to the charts, especially for 5k (my PB 20:52, chart 20:58). But i'm a little down on the Half Marathon (PB 1:42:16, chart 1:36 to 1:39)
Hi Mick, and welcome to the STartSLowButEVentuallyRunFasterAtTheSameHRTrainingAndChocolateChipScones forum.
Your initial journey reminds me of mine. When I started out back in 2003, I trained for 5 months without method or any education about running, except that I knew it was different than walking and watching Buffy The Vampire Slayer. I started racing and about three months later, I was slowing down. That's when I decide to do some reading and learned about heart-rate training. I used 70% MHR as a ceiling and started building up my volume. That made all the difference. Lots of volume in the aerobic, fat-burning ranges. Eventually I tweaked into the Maffetone Method, and I got even better, as I learned to periodize and do that patience phase before adding the speed and racing.
Your first MAF test looks good with very tight numbers (not much HR drift). As you proceed into this base period, you need to build volume from week to week. You're switching over to slow twitch fibers, which adapt quickly, and need challenging. You might see an initial regression, if so don't freak out, just keep building your volume until it turns around. There's a sweet spot in training load that you'll hit where it will start to improve. Often, people will start out below their sweet spot, and never increase volume, and not see improvement. Conversely, you can overdo it and see the same result. Too much training load. Though, that's rare if you're staying at MAF and below. Keep track of aerobic speed (pace at MAF) with your MAF tests, and your daily training runs.
In terms of how to schedule, some find that a longer runs followed by shorter runs works, while others saw great progress running the same duration every day (e.g an hour a day). The greatest 70+ runner in the world (Ed Whitlock) does 3 hours a day, easy on a loop in the cemetery across from his house.
Your race data suggests to me that you're a beginner racer. You'll eventually learn that you can push harder the shorter the race is. For example, your average HR for a 5k might be about 177-180, while a half marathon would be 162-65, and a marathon 155-160. You might also find that as you learn to push harder, your MHR will measure higher. This comes through time and learning to deal with with discomfort.
Keep us posted on your progress, Mick.
--Jimmy
I took up running July 2012 (so less than 18 months ago), but after an initial surge I don’t feel that I am progressing, ie getting faster. (...) I'm only able to get out two, sometimes three times a week though due to various family commitments, so I only usually put about 15 miles on the clock. I'm hoping this will be enough. I'm thinking that i'm going to stick to the treadmill to start with as I live in the one of the hilliest cities in the UK, so trying keep under MAF when running 8:30 is going to be tough up those hills. There just aren't many flat bits. I'm hoping that once i've got my pace down at MAF I will then be able to get outside. Thanks for listening, would love to hear people's thoughts. Mick
(...)
Well jimmyb already answered you A few extra comments/thoughts below though:
Firstly, I believe 15miles a week will not let you improve much even if and especially not if you do it all at MAF. I think your progress most likely halted because you didn't increase your mileage. After the initial beginner improvements 2 times a week of running is simply not enough for more improvement, no matter what kind of training method you use. Decide if running goals are important enough for you to find the extra time for a couple more runs every week. If not then your goal can be just staying healthy and perhaps - only with consistency at this low mileage - making some little improvement over the years. Low mileage is however not conducive to building endurance so your 5K time and half marathon time may never match up this way.
If you can put in the extra time then for half marathon PB I suggest that after a period of building endurance, you re-add some of the faster-sharper stuff, it'll possibly do wonders this way. Well, I'm still observing things for myself but it's been stated many times by the running experts and it seems it's true for me too that I can improve in big jumps if I do the faster stuff after some period of some sort of base build, at the minimum 4-6 weeks of that. In my analysis of my previous running years (not that many yet ), I've had a few big jumps, getting to higher fitness levels like a wonder, they *all* happened after such base build (obviously excluding the very first few weeks of running as a complete beginner). A note on that though, I could *not* get such "improvement jumps" if I stayed with base build, no matter how hard I tried. Base build on its own does still allow for improvement but it's slower steadier and doesn't translate as much into race pace improvements on its own though after enough of improvement I'm sure it does somewhat translate. So this is why I am recommending some faster stuff, with the right timing of course
Otoh some good news, your MAF pace is very decent already, so you should be able to get outside already, with a 8:30 flat pace MAF you can still wog up on decent hills without walking! trust me on that
I hope this helps! Good luck to your running!
Hi Mick, and welcome to the STartSLowButEVentuallyRunFasterAtTheSameHRTrainingAndChocolateChipScones forum. Your initial journey reminds me of mine. When I started out back in 2003, I trained for 5 months without method or any education about running, except that I knew it was different than walking and watching Buffy The Vampire Slayer. I started racing and about three months later, I was slowing down. That's when I decide to do some reading and learned about heart-rate training. I used 70% MHR as a ceiling and started building up my volume. That made all the difference. Lots of volume in the aerobic, fat-burning ranges. Eventually I tweaked into the Maffetone Method, and I got even better, as I learned to periodize and do that patience phase before adding the speed and racing. Your first MAF test looks good with very tight numbers (not much HR drift). As you proceed into this base period, you need to build volume from week to week. You're switching over to slow twitch fibers, which adapt quickly, and need challenging. You might see an initial regression, if so don't freak out, just keep building your volume until it turns around. There's a sweet spot in training load that you'll hit where it will start to improve. Often, people will start out below their sweet spot, and never increase volume, and not see improvement. Conversely, you can overdo it and see the same result. Too much training load. Though, that's rare if you're staying at MAF and below. Keep track of aerobic speed (pace at MAF) with your MAF tests, and your daily training runs. In terms of how to schedule, some find that a longer runs followed by shorter runs works, while others saw great progress running the same duration every day (e.g an hour a day). The greatest 70+ runner in the world (Ed Whitlock) does 3 hours a day, easy on a loop in the cemetery across from his house. Your race data suggests to me that you're a beginner racer. You'll eventually learn that you can push harder the shorter the race is. For example, your average HR for a 5k might be about 177-180, while a half marathon would be 162-65, and a marathon 155-160. You might also find that as you learn to push harder, your MHR will measure higher. This comes through time and learning to deal with with discomfort. Keep us posted on your progress, Mick. --Jimmy
Hi Jimmy,
Thanks for taking the time to reply in such a detailed manner, really appreciate it.
Agree that i'm a beginner racer, especially around HR. Maybe its because i've been focussed on time and min/mile during road races than what HR i'm capable of? When I ran my only HM and in my 10k races i've set the Garmin up to keep me under a certain min/mile and had no concern about HR. Obviously, nigh on impossible to do the same for a 5k, you just go and run it as hard as you feel you can, you get no time to have the watch beeping at you.
I'm gonna reply to cmon2 about mileage and volume, but its also aimed at your points.
Thanks again.
Well jimmyb already answered you A few extra comments/thoughts below though: Firstly, I believe 15miles a week will not let you improve much even if and especially not if you do it all at MAF. I think your progress most likely halted because you didn't increase your mileage. After the initial beginner improvements 2 times a week of running is simply not enough for more improvement, no matter what kind of training method you use. Decide if running goals are important enough for you to find the extra time for a couple more runs every week. If not then your goal can be just staying healthy and perhaps - only with consistency at this low mileage - making some little improvement over the years. Low mileage is however not conducive to building endurance so your 5K time and half marathon time may never match up this way. If you can put in the extra time then for half marathon PB I suggest that after a period of building endurance, you re-add some of the faster-sharper stuff, it'll possibly do wonders this way. Well, I'm still observing things for myself but it's been stated many times by the running experts and it seems it's true for me too that I can improve in big jumps if I do the faster stuff after some period of some sort of base build, at the minimum 4-6 weeks of that. In my analysis of my previous running years (not that many yet ), I've had a few big jumps, getting to higher fitness levels like a wonder, they *all* happened after such base build (obviously excluding the very first few weeks of running as a complete beginner). A note on that though, I could *not* get such "improvement jumps" if I stayed with base build, no matter how hard I tried. Base build on its own does still allow for improvement but it's slower steadier and doesn't translate as much into race pace improvements on its own though after enough of improvement I'm sure it does somewhat translate. So this is why I am recommending some faster stuff, with the right timing of course Otoh some good news, your MAF pace is very decent already, so you should be able to get outside already, with a 8:30 flat pace MAF you can still wog up on decent hills without walking! trust me on that I hope this helps! Good luck to your running!
Cmon2,
Again, thanks for taking the time to reply.
I can appreciate what you saying about needing more miles, but family commitments mean that i'm pretty unlikely to be able to post anymore than 15-20 miles per week over 2 or 3 outings.
I feel i've been flogging myself doing hills, intervals and other speed work over the past few months and am seeing little benefit (yet), hence a change of approach and MAF. I couldn't tell you the last time I went on a long slow run with no added extras.
So i'm quite willing to embrace MAF 2 or 3 times and week and see what happens for a couple of months. Then come the new year and race season ahead I will go back to some faster stuff.
I really have nothing to lose from trying MAF. I'd be very happy to knock 30 seconds min/mile MAF which could see me improve slightly overall. I know you've said its unlikely on 15 miles/week, but i'm optimistic.
Maybe I can be a test case for others..... see what happens on short mileage. I'm a sucker for stats and figures, so will be posting those.
If nothing else, this will be set me up nicely for the HM first weekend in April when I just have to beat last years time of 1:42:16. I'm thinking target sub 1:40 which my current MAF suggests is achievable. Especially as I was lucky to post 12 miles a week in the lead up to last years.
Good news on the hills for some outdoor MAF. There is a mile incline outside our house before it levels out, so i'm gonna use a brisk walk up the hill as my warm up before starting my MAF HR once I get to the top. Sorted.
That will be next weekend though, so gonna get some more treadmill sessions in this coming week.
PS. Not ideal and totally against the idea of 'just MAF, but i've got our local 10k two weeks on Sunday. Oops. Can't swerve it, already paid the entry fee and received my race pack through post. Okay, so what 10k time does 8:30 MAF get me to aim for?
Cmon2, Again, thanks for taking the time to reply. (...) PS. Not ideal and totally against the idea of 'just MAF, but i've got our local 10k two weeks on Sunday. Oops. Can't swerve it, already paid the entry fee and received my race pack through post. Okay, so what 10k time does 8:30 MAF get me to aim for?
No problem.
Sure, you can be a test case though if you look a couple threads back someone else has just done this without results. Of course I won't exclude the possibility that maybe it will work for you. Do report back.
Also don't forget what I said about how after base build speed work works better. So just for that effect it may be worth trying MAF even if you don't improve much during MAF phase.
As for the 10K race pace, I wouldn't try to predict from MAF pace if it's calculated from the 180 formula without adjusting to individual (such as the treadmill test). But of course in your case you already know your previous race times, I guess you can base your race paces on that.
Ohh and of course good luck to the race Report back on race results
I decided to give Jimmy's treadmill test a go.... here's my results
41 years, 10 months old, so went with 42. I'd been thinking my MAF was 180-42 then minus another 5 for non improving.
So take another 20 off for warmup gets me to 113.
23 minute treadmill warmup to get to 111BPM ish: http://connect.garmin.com/activity/405966349
Treadmill was on -1 incline and I had my Garmin to auto beep on 10 second intervals.
Felt breathing change around 135 to being a little more laboured. Had to stop at 172bpm as I was really struggling to keep up with the machine.
Felt ok until the 160's and struggled to keep the pace after that.
Any thoughts on how I fared?
PS. Hoping the next image comes through using IMG command, otherwise I will attempt to attach another way.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/405966355
[URL=http://s999.photobucket.com/user/zarch1972/media/Zarch-MAF.jpg.html][IMG]http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af111/zarch1972/Zarch-MAF.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Looks like a deflection at about 135-37 bpm.
That breathing change matching up is key.
You can't go wrong with using with 180-age-5 at this point.
Thanks for posting, Mick.
I'll link it to the TM thread.
well uh, the speed increase as shown on the horizontal axis doesn't seem linear.
I don't know how much that affects the results.
Well some good news and some bad news.
Bad news, not been able to do any running for 2 weeks due to onset of achilles pain. But have managed a few sessions on the cross trainer at around 180-age-5, so at least i've been doing something.
Good news though is that I took part in that planned 10k race I had in the diary. And despite 2 weeks with no running on the onset of a cold just days before the race I managed to smash my 10k time by almost 2 minutes, running at 41:54.
http://www.strava.com/activities/98016054
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/410761173
Honestly no idea where the run came from, just felt great and managed to keep the pace going.
A noticeable difference between yesterday (above) and the 10k race I ran just 2 months ago was that my HR was lower through the race yesterday even though I was running quicker??
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/382889633
I can only put that down to all the extra training i've been doing over the past few months starting to pay off?
Anyway, 41:54 at least makes my 8:30 MAF test (first mile) pace stack up.... I don't think my 43:50 previous PB did.
Gives me a massive headache what time to aim for at the HM in April. LOL.
So hoping my rest has helped the achilles and i'm ready to continue my winter MAF training.
Onwards and upwards.
Sometimes a rest can produce a nice result.
Congrats on a well-run 10k PR!
well congrats!
I don't know how you managed that; if I skip a week of training it'll already show in my heart rate etc. if I skip three weeks, I need a full training period of 4-6 weeks to get back to previous fitness. I don't know about two weeks, probably in-between :P
that's with no cross training though... I guess that helps. or maybe it's just me anyway
I don't really know either how you manage that from 15mpw but hey if it works it's cool
hope your leg is fine now! happy training!
1:37 perhaps?
assuming you'll run it under the same circumstances (weather etc) than the 1:42 PB
and assuming you keep 15mpw only