Low HR Training

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Am I doing this right? (Read 51 times)

KarenD


    Hi there, I'm just a couple weeks into my MAF training and I want to know your thoughts/opinions/feedback of my MAF pace.  Here's some background on me:

     

    I've been running since the Fall of 2009.  I am 41 years old with a MAF of 139 (soon to be 138).  My resting HR is 40 and my max is over 205.  My 5k PR is 22:32 (September 2013) and my 1/2 marathon PR is 1:49:17 (November 2013).  I do not tolerate heat well and I love running in the NE winter.  I have had problems with my IT Bands on and off during the past 4 years, especially when I ramp up the training (and racing - I got greedy doing more than 3 halfs in a year and racing shorter distances monthly) - which was only to a max of 40 miles/week.  Before MAF I'd run my easy or long runs on average at 9:15 pace.

     

    All this being said, here's my recent MAF Test (80 degrees, on a track, mid-morning, sunny and humid):

     

    Mile 1    12:07

    Mile 2    13:32

    Mile 3    14:16

    Mile 4    14:28

    Mile 5    14:34

     

    This pace is extremely slow, slower than everyone else's I've seen on MAF.  I am used to being on the outer range of "normal" because my HR can get so high.  I'm committed to trying MAF for at least 4-6 months (and I look forward to the cooler temps) but am I really this aerobically unfit (be honest, I can take it)?  I feel like I've been a relatively successful runner for the past almost 5 years but I also feel like I've built my foundation on mud instead of bedrock (after seeing these results and considering my injuries).

     

    My goals with MAF are to stay injury free and for more PR's.

     

    Anybody else out there start this slow?

     

    Thank you for your time.

    runnerclay


    Consistently Slow

      KarenD -12:07 is a great starting point. I started close to 17:00. My  5k was < 23 when not injured. In  5 years I still am not able to close the 5 miles to within :45 of the 1st mile. I tend not to run at maff but once a week. I have gone from ~500 miles a year to >2000 a year since starting Maff.

      Run until the trail runs out.

       SCHEDULE 2016--

       The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

      unsolicited chatter

      http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

      Buzzie


      Bacon Party!

        I'm no expert, but based on what I've learned, experienced, etc., I would say, "Yes. You are that aerobically deficient."

        This is reflected in your 5K and Half PRs (assuming they were run in nearly equivalent conditions, or at least that the Half was neither hotter nor hillier) - better aerobic conditioning would show you with a faster Half (say, 1:45-ish in similar conditions).

         

        And, yes, 80* on a humid sunny day will certainly take a toll on pace.

        More telling, perhaps, is the increase in pace over the course of the test.

         

        Considering your PRs, I'd guesstimate a MAF pace during the fall of 2013 of maybe 9:50. Certainly slower than the 9:15 you were training at.

         

        40 miles per week?

        Not sure how it was spent, but I've found that I see the biggest aerobic gains when I'm regularly doing runs of 90+ minutes - at least 2, preferably 3 (or more) per week.

         

        That said, there's good news here!

        1) Lots of room for improvement.

        2) You're just getting started ... with a steady diet of nice aerobic running, you should expect a bump around 6 weeks in (as it takes about that long for mitochondrial density and capillarization to increase from aerobic stimulus).

        3) Keeping your runs at or below MAF can certainly keep the injury monster at bay, enabling you to increase your volume (or, at least duration) so you can keep the improvements coming.

         

        One more thing ... Yes, summer heat can be soul sucking. But, training at/below MAF, you can rest assured that on any given day you are getting maximum return for your workout, pace be damned. It matters not if it's cool or hot.

        When fall rolls around you may see a nice bump in pace - between the cooler weather and the time you've spent training MAF.

         

        Welcome to the group!

        Liz

        pace sera, sera

          HI All, I am new to the group.  I have also  started the MAF training this year and have found it one of the hardest things I have tried to do.  I have a good friend that has helped guide me and answered tons of questions..hopefully I didn't make her to crazy..lol  She actually sent me over to this group for some info and support.

           

          I had the hardest time keeping it under MAF - when I ran it shot up and when I walked it was very low.  I have found the more I have stuck with it, the more progress I have made.  I am not breaking any records, but I am finding that I am able to run longer at the MAF HR and to me that has to be progress.  Speed will come with time I beleive.  I have just started to do my long runs based on time, not so much on miles - again very hard as I get hung up on the pace, but i am working on it...I cal myself a work in progress....

          Run, Walk, Crawl, just Finish.

          HF # 1189

          KarenD


            Thanks for the advice and encouragement.  Looks like an increase in mileage/time is in my near future.  I'm assuming a 10% or so increase per week is still a good guideline?  I ran 22 last week and rode my bike for 12 miles (1st time in a

            long time) so hoping for at least 25 running miles this week.  I will try to make it a point to get an additional 90 minute run in.

             

            I'm pretty sure this training will either make or break me as a distance runner - I've never run a marathon and had almost given even thinking about it because of repeated injuries - how could I run a full if I can't complete a half without my IT Band acting up?  I guess we'll see what happens in the next few months with increased mileage and slower speeds.

             

            I had a great run/walk today - MAF HR was more under control with an average of pace of 12:35 min/mile.  Yesterday I was at 13:10 min/mile.  So many variables can contribute to the higher heartrate - guess I better start a journal.

             

            Keep up the good work Barbs525!

             

            Karen

              @KarenD

               

              hi there Smile I will give my honest opinion: you are probably not that terribly "aerobically deficient". This doesn't mean that you shouldn't want to develop your endurance more, you'd do well with developing it more. But IMO you're not this terribly deficient aerobically. I say that after considering two things as below.

               

              1) The 180-age formula is a generic formula that does not take into account the individual -genetic- differences in working heart rate. It's a formula just like the 220-age formula to guess at maxHR. This means the formula is unreliable. It may give you a HR zone that's too high or too low. Maffetone himself said that he doesn't use it with his patients.

               

              2) Your maxHR and your PR's make it unlikely that 139 is really your MAF HR with that pace.

               

              To say anything more specific, I'd need more data on you; do you know what HR you tend to average in HM races? What HR did you usually have the 9:15 so-called easy pace at?

               

              As for your ITB issues; you say it mainly happens when you ramp up the training. Quite possibly you ramped up too fast. The 10% rule is only applicable to people who are returning to higher mileage that they were previously already used to. If it's a mileage you never did before, you should only add a couple of miles at first.

               

              You may also have added speed workouts that were at a pace too fast or at too high of a volume for your fitness. It's easy to screw up speed workouts in that way.

               

              You should also check if you are wearing the correct shoes and have your running form checked; also the terrain where you run can contribute to ITB issues if you don't run on even roads (side of the road may be higher or lower than the middle of the road and that's bad for the ITB).

               

              Personal story: when I tried to run at 180-age HR, I had a pace slower than 15min/mile. (That went to 14min/mile within a few days as the body got used to the new low HR zone.) No the formula didn't work for me. I used different HR zones afterwards and now that same HR (that the 180-age formula gives me) allows me to run at 8:20ish pace - after a couple of years of good consistent training. No shortcuts, no magic way of training, only simple consistent training with heart rate zones and paces personalized for me. Though when I say it's no magic, I just mean no magic shortcut. When I found the right way of training for me, I felt like it was magic!! 

                @Barbs595

                 

                It can definitely be hard to slow down if one is aerobically deficient which would be seen easily from how fast the long distances are raced and the relationship between these race times. It's cool you got progress by being able to run more at the low HR Smile I would say you really shouldn't get hung up on the pace though. I did that myself back then and it was just adding unnecessary stress.

                 

                Btw .. I'm curious about your race PR's and avg HR for races if you have any such data.

                 

                HI All, I am new to the group.  I have also  started the MAF training this year and have found it one of the hardest things I have tried to do.  I have a good friend that has helped guide me and answered tons of questions..hopefully I didn't make her to crazy..lol  She actually sent me over to this group for some info and support.

                 

                I had the hardest time keeping it under MAF - when I ran it shot up and when I walked it was very low.  I have found the more I have stuck with it, the more progress I have made.  I am not breaking any records, but I am finding that I am able to run longer at the MAF HR and to me that has to be progress.  Speed will come with time I beleive.  I have just started to do my long runs based on time, not so much on miles - again very hard as I get hung up on the pace, but i am working on it...I cal myself a work in progress....

                  @runnerclay

                  KarenD -12:07 is a great starting point. I started close to 17:00. My  5k was < 23 when not injured. In  5 years I still am not able to close the 5 miles to within :45 of the 1st mile. I tend not to run at maff but once a week. I have gone from ~500 miles a year to >2000 a year since starting Maff.

                   

                  when did you run your sub-23 5K and when did you run your 17-minute MAF mile?

                   

                  I won't debate that lowering your HR - to a certain extent - for some runs helps with increasing mileage and that's a good thing.

                   

                   

                  @Buzzie

                   

                  Just because KarenD ran her HM PR 4 minutes slower than the ideal 1:45 time, it certainly does not follow that she should exclusively train at 13-14min/mile paces (even with 80 degrees weather).

                   

                  I would agree that it's important to set the right -easy enough- intensity for easy and recovery runs to help with recovery and thus help with avoiding injuries.

                   

                  It however is wishful thinking to believe that -quoting from you- "But, training at/below MAF, you can rest assured that on any given day you are getting maximum return for your workout" and especially basing all that on one generic formula.

                   

                  I am not debating that there is such a thing as MAF HR because there certainly is a lot of benefit to training at aerobic heart rate zones. What I'm saying is that the MAF isn't necessarily what the calculation based on the formula gives. And the other thing I'm saying is MAF is not the only one heart rate where you can get maximum returns from a workout. It's more complex than that.

                  BeeRunB


                    Hi and welcome to the forum, and also the Maffetone Method, Karen,

                     

                    12:07 for the first mile in summer for a New Englander (I'm from R.I.) is not bad for starting out. MAF pace will be slower than if you started in winter. I'm sure it feels wicked slow for you. I've been that "fast", and right now, I'm much slower than you. In fact, I bow to your pace and repeat  "I am not worthy, I am not worthy."

                     

                    Working at your MAF and below will help increase the probability of staying injury free. And don't worry about working lower than that HR either. If you stick with the plan and stay at or below MAF in the base phase as Dr. Phil suggests, you'll give yourself the best chance of building the base correctly and without injury, you'll feel real strong and will have much greater endurance. As you build volume, keep tabs on the MAF pace. Summer can be so much more stressful, and it's easy to overdo it. You want to see continued progress. Once the beautiful N.E.  fall comes and things get cooler, you'll find t's much easier to build volume, and your MAF Pace should get faster by many percentage points. All that heat stress will be gone.

                     

                    As for the MAF, you can keep the same MAF you have now for awhile. Dr. Phil mentioned that if you keep progressing, you can keep the same MAF for up to 5 years. Plus once you've been progressing for awhile, you can add 5 beats to what you have now. It's always your call on that, and it never hurts  not to take the extra 5, as working out below MAF is just fine.

                     

                    If you have any more questions about MAF training, feel free to ask. Keep us posted on your progress.

                     

                    Lastly, you get 3 whines about the slowness. 

                     

                    Jimmy

                    (Atlanta--how did I get here? my Irish dna is still freaking out in this heat, so is my MAF)

                     

                     

                     

                    Hi there, I'm just a couple weeks into my MAF training and I want to know your thoughts/opinions/feedback of my MAF pace.  Here's some background on me:

                     

                    I've been running since the Fall of 2009.  I am 41 years old with a MAF of 139 (soon to be 138).  My resting HR is 40 and my max is over 205.  My 5k PR is 22:32 (September 2013) and my 1/2 marathon PR is 1:49:17 (November 2013).  I do not tolerate heat well and I love running in the NE winter.  I have had problems with my IT Bands on and off during the past 4 years, especially when I ramp up the training (and racing - I got greedy doing more than 3 halfs in a year and racing shorter distances monthly) - which was only to a max of 40 miles/week.  Before MAF I'd run my easy or long runs on average at 9:15 pace.

                     

                    All this being said, here's my recent MAF Test (80 degrees, on a track, mid-morning, sunny and humid):

                     

                    Mile 1    12:07

                    Mile 2    13:32

                    Mile 3    14:16

                    Mile 4    14:28

                    Mile 5    14:34

                     

                    This pace is extremely slow, slower than everyone else's I've seen on MAF.  I am used to being on the outer range of "normal" because my HR can get so high.  I'm committed to trying MAF for at least 4-6 months (and I look forward to the cooler temps) but am I really this aerobically unfit (be honest, I can take it)?  I feel like I've been a relatively successful runner for the past almost 5 years but I also feel like I've built my foundation on mud instead of bedrock (after seeing these results and considering my injuries).

                     

                    My goals with MAF are to stay injury free and for more PR's.

                     

                    Anybody else out there start this slow?

                     

                    Thank you for your time.

                    Buzzie


                    Bacon Party!

                      cmon2 - I'm not seeing where I said or even suggested that KarenD should train exclusively (or ever) at 13-14 min/mile paces (or any other pace). We're talking about training at a certain level of effort - pace is just a byproduct and will vary and trend given fitness, health, environment, etc.

                       

                      As for the bit about MAF and maximum return, I certainly could have expanded that to say, "But, training at/below MAF or any other prescribed level of effort, you can rest assured that on any given day you are getting the maximum return for your workout."

                      That would leave the door open for training at higher levels of intensity while still communicating the message about letting one's heart be one's guide.

                      HR is a convenient, accessible, and objective measure of effort that we can use while on the run. Is it the best? I'll leave that for others to debate.

                       

                      I agree, MAF is not simply a HR determined by a formula - although it may coincide with or be close enough to the number derived from Maffetone's formula to be practicable. I deliberately left the derivation of MAF out of my initial post.

                       

                      Over time, KarenD may find that her calculated MAF is not optimal.

                      In my opinion, calculated MAF is as good a place as any to start and I think it's worth giving it a fair shot (a few months? more?) to get a good feel for it, improve one's ability to listen to and hear one's body, and establish a baseline before tinkering.

                      I've found Stu Mittleman's descriptions of the sensations one feels at different level of intensity to be helpful. (I might post them later when I have the text and the time, if I remember.)

                       


                      @Buzzie

                       

                      Just because KarenD ran her HM PR 4 minutes slower than the ideal 1:45 time, it certainly does not follow that she should exclusively train at 13-14min/mile paces (even with 80 degrees weather).

                       

                      I would agree that it's important to set the right -easy enough- intensity for easy and recovery runs to help with recovery and thus help with avoiding injuries.

                       

                      It however is wishful thinking to believe that -quoting from you- "But, training at/below MAF, you can rest assured that on any given day you are getting maximum return for your workout" and especially basing all that on one generic formula.

                       

                      I am not debating that there is such a thing as MAF HR because there certainly is a lot of benefit to training at aerobic heart rate zones. What I'm saying is that the MAF isn't necessarily what the calculation based on the formula gives. And the other thing I'm saying is MAF is not the only one heart rate where you can get maximum returns from a workout. It's more complex than that.

                      Liz

                      pace sera, sera

                      KarenD


                        @ jimmyb - gotcha on the whines : )

                         

                        @ Buzzie - thank you for the information about Stu Mittleman - I'll be reading his book soon.

                         

                        @cmon2 - My average HR for a HM (from a race Sept. 2013) is roughly 180 bpm, with 8:15pace.  My average HR for a 5k in December 2013 was 189 and I finished in 22:42.  Honestly, before December of last year I don't think my HR monitor was completely accurate (Kudos to Garmin - they sent me a new strap and transmitter thing for free after I described my issues with them).  During the past winter I ran 6.5 miles with a 8:49 pace and my average HR was 169.

                         

                        Today I ran/walked 90+ minutes (thanks Buzzie for the suggestion) in the hot sun.  There's no way I would have gotten through those 7 miles at my old easy pace without a heck of a lot of complaining.  So, the best thing that's come out of this new training is that I'm still moving...and actually enjoying it.

                         

                        Looking forward to seeing where this brings me

                          @KarenD

                           

                          I might be called a heretic here now Smile by suggesting you could try a HR ceiling of around 150 - keeping close to 150 at all times - based on your 180 avg in HM races. I obviously don't have all the data on your HR profile so this is a crude guess - if it wasn't so hot that should be giving you a pace around 10min/mile. But yes, going by HR -especially on easy runs- is useful when the weather is like this. I would recommend training in best possible weather, mornings or evenings.

                           

                           

                          @cmon2 - My average HR for a HM (from a race Sept. 2013) is roughly 180 bpm, with 8:15pace.  My average HR for a 5k in December 2013 was 189 and I finished in 22:42.  Honestly, before December of last year I don't think my HR monitor was completely accurate (Kudos to Garmin - they sent me a new strap and transmitter thing for free after I described my issues with them).  During the past winter I ran 6.5 miles with a 8:49 pace and my average HR was 169.

                           

                          Today I ran/walked 90+ minutes (thanks Buzzie for the suggestion) in the hot sun.  There's no way I would have gotten through those 7 miles at my old easy pace without a heck of a lot of complaining.  So, the best thing that's come out of this new training is that I'm still moving...and actually enjoying it.

                           

                          Looking forward to seeing where this brings me

                            @Buzzie

                             

                            Cool we are on the same page as I'm also not suggesting KarenD should train like that Smile And yeah, the expansion of that statement makes more sense Smile

                             

                            I made my point about it because simply applying the maffetone formula and maffetone's base building ideas is what leads one to that pace - which I think is wrong.

                             

                            As for training at a certain level of effort - yes that's what the point is about. I did learn to listen to some body cues by training with a heart rate monitor exactly because I was not simply being a slave to the numbers on the display.

                             

                            The only thing where we strongly disagree is that one should give a few months of effort to train at a HR defined by a generic formula. You can get the feel for it sooner than that and if the training doesn't work you should know that within 2 months.

                             

                            It's another question as to why it doesn't work - either the intensity of workouts is wrong and/or the volume is wrong... or the structuring of the training is wrong.

                            KarenD


                              I discovered something interesting today.  Using the calculations for HRR and low intensity aerobic training, 60-70% my HR would fall between 139 and 156.  And 139 is my MAF HR.  Pretty sure this won't be the same for most people but I was pretty surprised that I was dead on for 60% of HRR.

                               

                              http://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/heart-rate-calculators/hrzone?minHR=40&maxHR=205&Submit=Calculate

                              runnerclay


                              Consistently Slow

                                6/14/2008

                                Macon

                                Race 3.1 mi 22:52 7:23  


                                The 17:00 miles must have been in my mind. I did find a 14:50  at 125 in 2010.

                                @runnerclay

                                 

                                when did you run your sub-23 5K and when did you run your 17-minute MAF mile?

                                 

                                I won't debate that lowering your HR - to a certain extent - for some runs helps with increasing mileage and that's a good thing.

                                 

                                 

                                Run until the trail runs out.

                                 SCHEDULE 2016--

                                 The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                                unsolicited chatter

                                http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

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