Running economy & MAF?

J.Franzén

posted: 6/12/2012 at 5:19 AM

Hi

It's a long time since I posted anything. I have been experimenting with minimalist & barefoot running lately. I just recently watched a video by Dr. Mark Cucuzella at naturalrunningcenter.com and tried to be a bit more conscious about my running form. It seems to me that you loose that inertia created by muscular contraction when jogging along at a slow MAF-pace, so you loose in running economy (if your MAF-pace is slow, like mine). There are no long downhills with a small gradient (such as recommended by Dr. Phil Maffetone) in our neighborhood to keep up running efficiency.

What do you guys think of this?

People who has had a lot of success with MAF-training all seem to have faster starting MAF-paces than me. So I've been thinking it might be beneficial to throw in some exercises above MAF just to tune that running economy. I'd assume the MAF-pace could still benefit, with a lot of easy running at or below MAF and faster long runs at whatever HR might be with a stride taking advantage of natural inertia in a fast enough leg turnover. Any experience from this kind of training?

Running Blog: On my two feet

daven

Don't overstride!

posted: 6/12/2012 at 7:18 AM
modified: 6/12/2012 at 7:41 AM

I agree MAF does not do much to train the legs to be more effecient. I am going to follow a 80% MAF, 20% in the high zones my next base building period.

jimmyb

posted: 6/12/2012 at 12:05 PM

Quote from daven on 6/12/2012 at 7:18 AM:

I agree MAF does not do much to train the legs to be more effecient. I am going to follow a 80% MAF, 20% in the high zones my next base building period.

How is this efficiency measured?

running log / profile / Crusted Salt comic strip / blog / running of the bulls

Burnt Toast

posted: 6/12/2012 at 1:30 PM

Quote from jimmyb on 6/12/2012 at 12:05 PM:

How is this efficiency measured?

I was out for a noon run and was thinking the same thing.

The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

2013 Goals:

5k = sub 21:00

HM = sub 100 minutes

Run = 3650 / 2 miles

Bike = 3500 miles

Swim = 150 miles

Race 1st HIM

Burnt Toast

posted: 6/12/2012 at 1:37 PM
modified: 6/12/2012 at 1:42 PM

Quote from J.Franzén on 6/12/2012 at 5:19 AM:

People who has had a lot of success with MAF-training all seem to have faster starting MAF-paces than me.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. My MAF is about 3-4 minutes slower per mile then my fastest 5k race pace. By looking at your PR's and easy run workouts, looks like you are in the same ballpark. In general, the faster you can race, the faster you are at MAF.

You have 240 miles for the year logged, if you want your MAF to improve, it will probably take more then 50 miles a month to do so. You're not going to get there by running your easy runs faster. The only thing you will succeed in doing is injuring yourself.

The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

2013 Goals:

5k = sub 21:00

HM = sub 100 minutes

Run = 3650 / 2 miles

Bike = 3500 miles

Swim = 150 miles

Race 1st HIM

kfmfe04

posted: 6/12/2012 at 8:44 PM
modified: 6/12/2012 at 10:03 PM

The OP is a bit overloaded with topics.

In particular, it pays to be cautious towards the following points:

Make sure you ease into minimal/barefoot running. It's very easy to get injured if you do TMTS (too much too soon). So pay careful attention to your legs and feet for 24 hours after a minimal/barefoot run. If there are unusual pains, it pays to be prudent to cut back or even rest.

Doing Maffetone requires patience and persistence. As Burnt Toast suggested, it takes some mileage before you will see some progress. In my case, the progress was obvious only after 250mi - so at your rate, that may be another five months. The way I look at it, Maffetone is a specific implementation of LSD (long slow distance) base building. You need to stay under MAF to be slow enough and you have to put in the long distance for your aerobic base to be effective.

Running efficiency, if you mean in terms of leg turnover rate, has been discussed extensively in the archived CoolRunning forums. In general, the consensus is, you don't need to worry about this until later in your MAF training. A good time to focus on this: wait until after you can no longer see any more progress in your MAF training. So in your case, you don't need to worry about this until much, much later.

I'm not sure how slow you are going, but many, many of us started MAFing at 14-16 minutes per mile. Even Jesse, who made tremendous progress with MAFing and no sharpening except races, started at 16 mpm. So how slow you start MAFing should have little impact on later results - it is only an indication of your starting aerobic fitness.

If you want to try MAFing for 12 weeks, I highly recommend that you stay within the parameters (do whatever you like, but stay under MAF) and keep good records of what you're doing. Otherwise, if you do not make progress, we will have no way of determining what went wrong.

I am in Week 9 of daily MAFing myself. In the beginning, I, too, had my doubts about making progress. Now, I know MAFing works, so I don't focus on it any more. I know if I put in the mileage and don't get injured, I am guaranteed to get fitter and to lose more weight over time. So these days, I focus more on adding barefoot and huaraches running (form), and on paying attention to diet and rest: a proper balance of all three is needed.

Also, there is a tendency of beginning MAFers to be overly obsessed with pace. This should go away over time if you know where to look to for other indications of progress (eg lower heart rate).

Lastly, enjoy your runs! MAFing is supposed to be slow enough that you feel great - like you can do the same run again - when you are done.

- Ken

Age:42, MAF:138, 168cm/5'6", 62.2kg/137lb (from 73kg/161lb), BF: 14.9%

Goals: MAF10k@56:50, 59kg/130lb (32 days to go)

Stage: Trying to get back to MAF Base Building after muscle strain injury

My Training Log

Shondek

posted: 6/18/2012 at 2:16 AM

Quote from J.Franzén on 6/12/2012 at 5:19 AM:

Hi

It's a long time since I posted anything. I have been experimenting with minimalist & barefoot running lately. I just recently watched a video by Dr. Mark Cucuzella at naturalrunningcenter.com and tried to be a bit more conscious about my running form. It seems to me that you loose that inertia created by muscular contraction when jogging along at a slow MAF-pace, so you loose in running economy (if your MAF-pace is slow, like mine). There are no long downhills with a small gradient (such as recommended by Dr. Phil Maffetone) in our neighborhood to keep up running efficiency.

What do you guys think of this?

People who has had a lot of success with MAF-training all seem to have faster starting MAF-paces than me. So I've been thinking it might be beneficial to throw in some exercises above MAF just to tune that running economy. I'd assume the MAF-pace could still benefit, with a lot of easy running at or below MAF and faster long runs at whatever HR might be with a stride taking advantage of natural inertia in a fast enough leg turnover. Any experience from this kind of training?

I think efficiency comes with aerobic training.There is no benefit in running above maf.Try it yourself and see .Do >maf session then test yourself at maf and below and you'll probably find you have regressed but hey your efficiency might have improved..LOL.If you have improved at maf and below it could mean you are ready for some >maf training..

I found that the further below maf I ran the lower the pain.

ie

@ Maf...ankles really sore

maf-5 ....sore but but still stiff

maf-10 ..slight pain

maf-15..no virtually no pain.

Walking ...Ideal

Cutting out or drastically reducing high glycemic carbs made a big difference for me as far as ankle stiffness and pain went .Come to think of it the above was when I was eating rice and pasta etc.I can now run above maf and not have any issues with pain.Its when I eat a large carb meal that stiffness returns; probably inflammation .You need to experiment and let us know

Remember base training is not about performance and how fast you are running it's about training in the correct zone(<maf) and letting the speed come to you rather than you trying to get to speed.

Good luck with your patience

Low HR Training

Running economy & MAF? (Read 566 times)