Low HR Training

MAF HR vs VO2max percentage (Read 1253 times)

    I'm just wondering what the purpose of this anaerobic test is.

    Do you structure your training based on the results of this test? Or are you using it as a measure of your anaerobic fitness

    --Jimmy

     

     

    the test is to measure aerobic capacity. of course a lot of anaerobic crap is also going on...but you are running at maximal oxygen consumption. still, not a lot of the oxygen will be used for fat burning (I guess virtually none of it), so for maffetone this is fully anaerobic.

     

    I know you know all that semantics but I wanted to mention it because for me anaerobic fitness is something else, anaerobic capacity is more like the speed you can do for sprint distances. that's carbs burned without oxygen and some alactic fuel use, where no lactate is produced (then a lot of lactate will be produced when you run out of the alactic fuel after about 1 min or so).

     

    and yes, I train by intensities determined from this 5min test.

     

    if I was to train by anaerobic capacity that would be a bad idea because there is a big disconnect between the two for me (I'm a lot faster in the sprints than in the 5min test).

     

    anyway, the test is done in every 1-2 months or so. if it improves, then vo2max pace improved, and of course all paces are adjusted then.

     

    note it's a bit more complex than that.. only part of the training is done based on the vo2max paces, the HRM is also used to keep the HR even for some workouts (pace is allowed to decline to keep even HR).

    jimmyb


      the test is to measure aerobic capacity. of course a lot of anaerobic crap is also going on...but you are running at maximal oxygen consumption. still, not a lot of the oxygen will be used for fat burning (I guess virtually none of it), so for maffetone this is fully anaerobic.

       

      I know you know all that semantics but I wanted to mention it because for me anaerobic fitness is something else, anaerobic capacity is more like the speed you can do for sprint distances. that's carbs burned without oxygen and some alactic fuel use, where no lactate is produced (then a lot of lactate will be produced when you run out of the alactic fuel after about 1 min or so).

       

      and yes, I train by intensities determined from this 5min test.

       

      if I was to train by anaerobic capacity that would be a bad idea because there is a big disconnect between the two for me (I'm a lot faster in the sprints than in the 5min test).

       

      anyway, the test is done in every 1-2 months or so. if it improves, then vo2max pace improved, and of course all paces are adjusted then.

       

      note it's a bit more complex than that.. only part of the training is done based on the vo2max paces, the HRM is also used to keep the HR even for some workouts (pace is allowed to decline to keep even HR).

       

      It seems to me any test that puts you near MHR like that is completely anaerobic under not only Dr. Phil's definitions but almost everyone else's.

      I don't understand how it could be measuring anything but how fast you can go anearobically and in a 5 minute race. Good information in those terms to be sure. Especially if you are into brief races of 1k-2k or a mile. Not so sure in terms of endurance for a marathon. Raising your  V02max doesn't guarantee better race performance in endurance events.

       

      How is this heart rate training?

       

      Too bad you don't do MAF tests--for me. I'd be interested to see how this 5 minute progress/regression graph relates to one of an MAF test (the best measure of your aerobic speed in my opinion).

       

      ---Jimmy

      Log    PRs

        It seems to me any test that puts you near MHR like that is completely anaerobic under not only Dr. Phil's definitions but almost everyone else's.

        I don't understand how it could be measuring anything but how fast you can go anearobically and in a 5 minute race. Good information in those terms to be sure. Especially if you are into brief races of 1k-2k or a mile. Not so sure in terms of endurance for a marathon. Raising your  V02max doesn't guarantee better race performance in endurance events.

         

        How is this heart rate training?

         

        Too bad you don't do MAF tests--for me. I'd be interested to see how this 5 minute progress/regression graph relates to one of an MAF test (the best measure of your aerobic speed in my opinion).

         

        ---Jimmy

         

         

        it measures vo2max pace or the pace that belongs to the point where you're using the most oxygen. the thing is that as you near maximal o2 consumption, anaerobic engine will already have started up so at maximal oxygen use, part of the energy does come from fuel burnt without oxygen, producing lactate. but at this point you are NOT completely anaerobic yet. you are only completely anaerobic in a sprint for about 1 minute or so. for a 5min long race you're already getting more energy from aerobic than from anaerobic processes.

         

        by the way I believe that in a race you will be able to go a bit longer than 5mins at that pace. but the field test is 5mins long (harder to keep the hard pace in training run).

         

        as for the heart rate, if the goal of the run is to improve endurance then I usually go by HR and I need to keep HR even. but even some other runs that are by pace can improve endurance.

         

        as for MAF tests, well, my 60% runs can all be considered MAF tests right now, as it coincides with MAF pace. in the past it didn't! Smile

         

        and I do sometimes run at low HR anyway when I feel like it. (I'm also curious about how my pace is at low HR. so I keep in touch with it.)

         

        so from this, I know that I've had the pace improve at MAF HR while vo2max test stayed the same. meaning, my endurance improved from my training.

         

        it is also possible that the vo2max pace will improve and MAF pace will improve at the same time.

         

        what exactly will happen seems to depend both on what training you do and on where you are in your training/fitness.

         

        btw, if you raise the vo2max speed, or vVO2max to use the accepted terminology (the small "v" stands for velocity), you can still have the marathon pace improve from that if you managed to improve vVO2max without killing off endurance. (say, if you improve vVO2max by endurance training)

         

        if you manage to improve vVO2max by doing speed work, then you could kill some endurance off..and that could be a slower MAF pace while vVO2max got better.

         

        I think it's useful to have both info..

         

        I will eventually try to make some nice sum up about how my paces improved over the months/years of training, incl. vVo2max and MAF pace and all that. Smile

        jimmyb


          You know me, I go by Dr. Phil's definiton of aerobic and anaerobic. As soon as I am not burning fat anymore,

          I'm completely anaerobic, and this happens somwhere in the neighborhood of 15 beats below my MHR. Using

          a test that puts me so close to MHR to determine my aerobic fitness doesn't make sense to me, as there

          is absolutely no fat-burning happening, or slow-twitch involvement. He talks about V02max really having

          nothing to do with how fast you can get aerobically (aerobic speed), and is why a person with a lower

          V02max can beat one with a higher one in an endurance race. In a sprint, probably not.

           

          Good luck with your training system. I hope it works well for you and gives you health and longgevity as well.

          Keep going!

           

          --Jimmy

          Log    PRs

            You know me, I go by Dr. Phil's definiton of aerobic and anaerobic. As soon as I am not burning fat anymore,

            I'm completely anaerobic, and this happens somwhere in the neighborhood of 15 beats below my MHR. Using

            a test that puts me so close to MHR to determine my aerobic fitness doesn't make sense to me, as there

            is absolutely no fat-burning happening, or slow-twitch involvement. He talks about V02max really having

            nothing to do with how fast you can get aerobically (aerobic speed), and is why a person with a lower

            V02max can beat one with a higher one in an endurance race. In a sprint, probably not.

             

            Good luck with your training system. I hope it works well for you and gives you health and longgevity as well.

            Keep going!

             

            --Jimmy

             

             

            well I recall reading that slow twitch fibers are recruited for highest speeds too. Smile (so in theory they could be improved from high intersity but in reality they won't fatigue because  the high intensity won't last long. so not really the optimal training for slow twitch. also excess high intensity training will kill aerobic system, so again no chance for slow twitchers)

             

            anyway, an important note here, I am NOT talking about VO2max. I am talking about vVO2max. a very different thing. I don't even care about VO2max itself.

             

            vVO2max takes into account running efficiency in the definition, this is what is sorely missing from plain VO2max.

             

            with lower VO2max you could beat someone else even in shorter races as long as your efficiency is greater than this other person's.

             

            but if your vVO2max is significantly lower than this other person's vVO2max, then you have a lot less chance to beat them... you can still do for longer races if the other person's really really lacking in endurance.

             

            I care about vVO2max because it shows me how well I can run for 5k, 10k, half marathon. now, the marathon needs a lot more fat burning than the shorter distances...so aerobic conditioning (=fat burning) is very important for marathon.

             

            btw, I think short sprint doesn't have much to do with VO2max... I can sprint up to 30secs (or about 200m) without ever opening my mouth for oxygen. the oxygen use only starts after that period.

             

            so maybe the person with lower VO2max can still outsprint the one with higher one. same for vVO2max. example: I do a 100m sprint in about 17sec (I am fully untrained for sprinting), my friend does it in 15. (he is also fully untrained for sprinting.)

             

            so he can outsprint me, still, my vVO2max really trumps his. I'm a lot faster than him for any distance longer than sprint. that is because I've done more distance running than him. (I don't know about plain VO2max because neither of us have done a lab test for it.)

            jimmyb


              I'm obviously truly out of my intellectual league here, C, and will now crawl back to my Low Heart Rate training

              Method forum for people practicing various forms of Low Heart Rate Training Methods.

              Oh, that's right, I'm in the the Low Heart Rate Training forum. I guess I'll just crawl

              back to my Maffetone Method Support thread and Exposure thread and my cozy little worlds based

              on fat/sugar percentages, RQ tests  and 180-formulas. I tip over my King and bow--with respect-- to your

              expertise and experience in all matters above and beyond 100% sugar burning

              and 0% fat. I forgot the names of the fibers that always have fat in the fuel mix, but beyond those too!

              Again, good luck with your  VVVV02max training, C--hope it reaps great rewards and great health,

              may you make PB's  until you be an octogenarian. Cool

               

              tippy toe

              tippy toe

              anyone looking?

              no

              good.

              they didn't notice my limitations

              whew!

              tippy toe

              tippy toe.....

              Roll eyes

              Log    PRs

                you're nice Cool but I'm slightly out of my league too, I've to learn a lot more... didn't want to bore you to death with this discussion. Surprised anyway your post was pretty funny Smile