Low HR Training

1

Need advice on training for upcoming half marathon (Read 39 times)

mkm856


    Hi!  I just learned about MAF training YESTERDAY, and it makes perfect sense to me.  I've been training the more traditional way for an upcoming half marathon with the usual intervals, tempo runs and long slow runs.  I'm definitely a novice runner.  A friend suggested I wear my HR rate monitor on my runs and I was shocked at how high the readings are, which is what lead me to discover the MAF training.  It appears that I have no real aerobic base, and yesterday I tried to run at my target heart rate of 145 and it slowed me down to a 13:00 mile.  I have a race coming up in under 5 weeks and I guess my question is should I do all of my runs at MAF pace starting now until the race?  Or should I continue with my current training schedule and then switch to MAF running when the race is over?  Would MAF running have a positive or negative affect on my pace?  I wish I knew about this months ago.


    Consistently Slow

      Just wait to after the race. MAFF training  will slow you down initially.

      Run until the trail runs out.

      2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

      50miler 13:26:18

      Race Less Train More

       

      Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

      "The Marble in The Groove"

       

      unsolicited chatter

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      jimmyb


        Runnerclay (ron) makes a good suggestion. You might want to read more about this training before making a full commitment . There's info and here in the boilerplate in the first few posts, and Dr. Phil Maffetone's  books, website, and interviews (he just did a great one on Endurance Planet, check it out). Below I've mentioned some of the things that happen when you switch into an aerobic MAF base phase.

         

        You have some aerobic development. I've seen worse than 13:00 on my own journey and in that of others around here.

         

        A few questions:

         

        Do you know your MHR?

        How high is your heart rate going on your tempo runs and intervals?

        How do you know how fast to run your tempos and intervals?

        Are you just running 3 days a week with a long, tempo, and intervals?

        If not, are there recovery or short easy runs on days between the hard workouts?

        Is this your first half marathon?

        How is your body feeling? Any nagging injuries?

         

         

        I'm not sure what your schedule looks like. If you have recovery runs, or easy runs, you might try running those at MAF to enhance recovery. Ultimately it's up to you what you choose the rest of the way to the race. Depends how important the race is to you, I guess.. MAF training won't slow you per se, depending on the volume and where you're at. Some people come to it and stat seeing improvement at their MAF right away. Some see some slowing, then when they hit the right volume, it turns around. Some also get a little sore for a week or two when they switch over to their slow twitch muscles and their stride changes a little when they're going slower.

         

        As far as your race pace goes, if you manage to improve on the 13:00 from here to the half marathon doing just aerobic base work at MAF, then it should give you better endurance.

         

        One thing you definitely can do is run at least a mile at your MAF after a warm-up every week or three and monitor your speed at that HR, even if you continue with your current training. You should be improving on that 13:00 from here to the half marathon. The formal term is MAF test. If you're getting faster at your MAF, good. If you're getting slower, adjustments need to be made (i.e. more or less volume, no more speed work, add speed work, rest). How your body feels is always part of the equation.

         

        Feel free to ask more questions.

         

        --Jimmy Cool

        Log    PRs

        mkm856


          Thanks so much for the detailed reply!  I've tried to answer as best as I can:

           

          Do you know your MHR?

          Looking at my Garmin the highest I can find is 186

           

          How high is your heart rate going on your tempo runs and intervals?

          I don't have much data to look at yet but on my last tempo run that I wore the HR monitor it was avg 175 and max 183.

           

          How do you know how fast to run your tempos and intervals?

          No idea! I've been trying negative splits recently for tempo runs and have been starting at 9:30, finishing around 8:58 or so.

           

          Are you just running 3 days a week with a long, tempo, and intervals?

          I'm running 5 or 6 days a week, usually 1 or 2 tempo runs, one interval or hill workout, and one long run with the rest being easy 4 or 5 mile runs.

           

          If not, are there recovery or short easy runs on days between the hard workouts?

          Yep.

           

          Is this your first half marathon?

          Yes.

           

          How is your body feeling? Any nagging injuries?

          I'm consistently sore. But not injured.

           

          I suffer from over analyzing everything that I do and am constantly second guessing my training plan, how often I run, how fast, how far, etc.  I wish I could just pick a plan and stick with it, but I'm always wondering if I should be doing something else.  I have issues, haha!

           

          Runnerclay (ron) makes a good suggestion. You might want to read more about this training before making a full commitment . There's info and here in the boilerplate in the first few posts, and Dr. Phil Maffetone's  books, website, and interviews (he just did a great one on Endurance Planet, check it out). Below I've mentioned some of the things that happen when you switch into an aerobic MAF base phase.

           

          You have some aerobic development. I've seen worse than 13:00 on my own journey and in that of others around here.

           

          A few questions:

           

          Do you know your MHR?

          How high is your heart rate going on your tempo runs and intervals?

          How do you know how fast to run your tempos and intervals?

          Are you just running 3 days a week with a long, tempo, and intervals?

          If not, are there recovery or short easy runs on days between the hard workouts?

          Is this your first half marathon?

          How is your body feeling? Any nagging injuries?

           

          I'm not sure what your schedule looks like. If you have recovery runs, or easy runs, you might try running those at MAF to enhance recovery. Ultimately it's up to you what you choose the rest of the way to the race. Depends how important the race is to you, I guess.. MAF training won't slow you per se, depending on the volume and where you're at. Some people come to it and stat seeing improvement at their MAF right away. Some see some slowing, then when they hit the right volume, it turns around. Some also get a little sore for a week or two when they switch over to their slow twitch muscles and their stride changes a little when they're going slower.

           

          As far as your race pace goes, if you manage to improve on the 13:00 from here to the half marathon doing just aerobic base work at MAF, then it should give you better endurance.

           

          One thing you definitely can do is run at least a mile at your MAF after a warm-up every week or three and monitor your speed at that HR, even if you continue with your current training. You should be improving on that 13:00 from here to the half marathon. The formal term is MAF test. If you're getting faster at your MAF, good. If you're getting slower, adjustments need to be made (i.e. more or less volume, no more speed work, add speed work, rest). How your body feels is always part of the equation.

           

          Feel free to ask more questions.

           

          --Jimmy Cool

          jimmyb


            Hey MKM,

             

            If your tempos are maxing at 183, and you're not running an intensity in which you're in  big time oxygen debt like when you're sprinting all out, then your MHR is probably  a lot higher than 186. Maybe upwards of 200. You can measure MHR at the end of a race or even at the tail end of a tempo. Just go all out down the last half mile and you'll get close.

             

            You really shouldn't be sore all the time while training. After a race, or early in training, it's understandable. The fact that you are sore so often indicates you are working way too hard on your hard days, and not easy enough on your easy days. That's why I asked your MHR, it can help in determining some training heart rates. If you have a recent race time or a time trial result, you can also use the McMillan and/or Team Oregon Pace Wizard to help you get proper pacing for your tempos and intervals. Dr. Maffetone suggests keeping all speed work to  90% MHR or slower. For me, I find that if I do, it works, and I don't get sore. I keep around LT heart rate or slower, which for me is about 88% MHR.

             

            But since you're not sure, the best thing you can do is rest more between hard workouts. I already suggested running at MAF or below on easy days. If you're currently running 50 minutes for an easy run, keep it at 50 minutes or less, but at MAF, and don't worry if the mileage is less. Even extra all-out rest days won't hurt you. The progress comes in recovery. If you're sore all the time, that's your body telling you something. Sounds like it's saying to you "back off a little."  Most likely if you just add the MAF on recovery days, and slow your intervals down, or even replace them with a medium long run at an easy pace, you'll recover, and see no loss of fitness. Keep the tempo run and make sure it's in the neighborhood of 80-90% MHR. If you do have a race time to pop into the calculators,  they'll give you a possible half marathon pace and heart rate, you could always slow your tempos to between that pace and HR and the possible 10k pace and HR, and that'll put you in the anaerobic/lactate threshold range. Tempos in that range should be in the 20-40 minute range (the lower end if you're a beginner). Tempos that are longer than 40 minutes should be marathon to half marathon pace, and you'll get a good stimulus without overdoing it.

             

            You always need ways to measure progress during training. Since you have a heart rate monitor, it's easy to do so. You should be getting faster at MAF, and also the higher heart rates in your harder training runs.  Some will choose a distance or duration and pace and keep to that until it  feels easy, indicating increased fitness. If they were to measure heart rate, their heart rate would have gotten lower for the same speed and distance. They then just increase the distance, duration , and pace, until that feels easy. And on and on until they peak. Any soreness you feel in the beginning should go away. Just have a method. Don't train blindly not knowing how to judge fitness or how to determine a race pace. A well-detailed training log will come in real handy for you in this regard, over the years. Self-knowledge in this biz goes a real long way.

             

            Do you have any recent race times?

            Any heart rate data for those races?

            When you do your temp runs, are you out of breath? On a discomfort scale of 1 to 10, how hard do they feel?

            What's the square root of 81?

             

            --JimmyCool

             

            p.s. You definitely don't want to be sore come race day. Have a taper plan. Be rested and fresh when you get to the starting line.

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

            Thanks so much for the detailed reply!  I've tried to answer as best as I can:

             

            Do you know your MHR?

            Looking at my Garmin the highest I can find is 186

             

            How high is your heart rate going on your tempo runs and intervals?

            I don't have much data to look at yet but on my last tempo run that I wore the HR monitor it was avg 175 and max 183.

             

            How do you know how fast to run your tempos and intervals?

            No idea! I've been trying negative splits recently for tempo runs and have been starting at 9:30, finishing around 8:58 or so.

             

            Are you just running 3 days a week with a long, tempo, and intervals?

            I'm running 5 or 6 days a week, usually 1 or 2 tempo runs, one interval or hill workout, and one long run with the rest being easy 4 or 5 mile runs.

             

            If not, are there recovery or short easy runs on days between the hard workouts?

            Yep.

             

            Is this your first half marathon?

            Yes.

             

            How is your body feeling? Any nagging injuries?

            I'm consistently sore. But not injured.

             

            I suffer from over analyzing everything that I do and am constantly second guessing my training plan, how often I run, how fast, how far, etc.  I wish I could just pick a plan and stick with it, but I'm always wondering if I should be doing something else.  I have issues, haha!

             

            Log    PRs

            mkm856


              Thanks for all the info!  HR monitoring is so new to me and I still have lots to learn about it.  And this is my first real race, so I don't have any data to use just yet.  I think my stragegy for this race, since I have only 4 weeks left to train for it will be to do all my easy and recovery runs at the MAF pace, and keep one tempo run and one long run.  I don't know if I can do my long runs at MAF pace, since it would take me ages!  I'll probably keep doing what I have been for them, which is about 11:30 pace and still easy.  I have to do one today, I'll wear the monitor and see where my HR ends up.

               

              After this race I want to do MAF the right way, so I'll be doing alot of reading between now and then.  I'm so glad I found this forum, there's no substitute for reading about others real life experiences Smile

                Thanks for all the info!  HR monitoring is so new to me and I still have lots to learn about it.  And this is my first real race, so I don't have any data to use just yet.  I think my stragegy for this race, since I have only 4 weeks left to train for it will be to do all my easy and recovery runs at the MAF pace, and keep one tempo run and one long run.  I don't know if I can do my long runs at MAF pace, since it would take me ages!  I'll probably keep doing what I have been for them, which is about 11:30 pace and still easy.  I have to do one today, I'll wear the monitor and see where my HR ends up.

                 

                After this race I want to do MAF the right way, so I'll be doing alot of reading between now and then.  I'm so glad I found this forum, there's no substitute for reading about others real life experiences Smile

                 

                I think jimmyb's advice is golden here. Smile I, too, recommend an easier pace for the easy days. part of the long run could be kept moderate intensity but make sure it's not done too close to your hard speedwork days. 6 days per week in your case sounds too much too, try 4-5 instead. good luck! Smile

                mkm856


                  Hi everyone!

                   

                  So my race is over, and I'm ready to do all of my running at my MAF pace (145).  I have a question though.  When I did some running at MAF pace before the half marathon my pace was averaging 13:30.  I was surprised at how slow it was but was okay with it.  I ran the race 2 weekends ago, and then took 9 days off from all running.  2 days ago I went out for a 4 mile run at MAF and the pace was impossible.  My route is kind of hilly so I gave up trying to stay under 145 and jogged back home.  Yesterday I was determined to stay under 145 so I went to a local track with the intention of doing 4 miles, and I ended up stopping at 1 hour.  I only went 3.91 miles!  Does this sound right?  Have I lost that much fitness in 9 days of rest?  It is a little discouraging.

                  mkm856


                    I guess it sounds like I'm whining.  Sorry.

                    jimmyb


                      I guess it sounds like I'm whining.  Sorry.

                       

                      9 days off after a hard anaerobic effort will help you rest--good for health--but there might be some loss of aerobic fitness due to the stoppage. It can also be due to the race, depending on whether or not your aerobic system was ready for such an anaerobic effort. In some people, the race itself can cause regression because of the stress by-products produced in the body breaking down an aerobic system not yet developed (according to Dr. Phil and Dr. Van Aaken). The race sets them back. Combine a layoff with a huge hit to an aerobic system not yet out of its deficiency, and you get regression. There could be other factors involved. But in the heart rate training biz there's an ol' mantra: it is what it is. Your current readings aren't lying to you. Make a note of what happened, then get rebuilding. Perhaps you need to get your aerobic speed down into the 10:00-11:00 range or better before you do such a huge effort like a half marathon. 13:30 might indicate that you're still deficient.

                       

                      You get two more whines. Cool

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                      mkm856


                        Thanks, I'll try to save my 2 whines for when I really need them Smile

                         

                        So today I cheated and ran on a treadmill, and set it to a 1.5 decline.  I was just dying to go a little faster.  Is this okay?

                        jimmyb


                          Thanks, I'll try to save my 2 whines for when I really need them Smile

                           

                          So today I cheated and ran on a treadmill, and set it to a 1.5 decline.  I was just dying to go a little faster.  Is this okay?

                           

                          "Cheat" on a treadmill? Did you ingest "the clear" while on it? Put your feet on the sides and only pretend to do the miles?

                          Please clarify. Cool

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                          mkm856


                             

                            "Cheat" on a treadmill? Did you ingest "the clear" while on it? Put your feet on the sides and only pretend to do the miles?

                            Please clarify. Cool

                             

                            I meant that I cheated by running on a consistent decline so that I could go faster.  If it were set to level, I would have been moving at a much slower pace.

                            jimmyb


                              I'm running on a treadmill from the dark ages when things only went up, and thus the word "decline" is invisible to me. I saw "incline."  Which explains my confused fish-out-of-water state of mind.

                               

                              I do believe what you did is called "downhill running" by a member of our tribe (Dr. Phil) and is a fine technique.

                               

                              Now back to making my corn cob wipes for the outhouse.

                              Log    PRs