Low HR Training

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Running, Rowing and Biking with MAF (NEWBIE) (Read 985 times)

jimmyb


     

     

    hmm, one thing I find weird about MAF training people: the ones who've had success with it keep saying they improved a lot. this combined with the initial slow pace can make people want that improvement too much and then that can make them frustrated.

     

     

    The post to Paul on which you commented was to offer him encouragement and hope. It's quite normal in a forum based on any kind of training to have people who are finding some improvement to say so, and for those who aren't to say so as well. It's about sharing so we can help each other. I rarely ever think anyone is boasting. I've been on a ride in my running life, and have posted my regression as well.  I'm a text book case of what can happen when you don't pay attention to MAF tests. I'm still in an aerobic hole, but I'm climbing out. 12:12 for an MAF test is still 2-3:00 slower than I use to run them 2 years ago. I've let everyone in on my failures and setbacks. As do a lot of the gracious individuals here who post and take time to share what is going on with them, and to answer questions. No one is responsible for anyone else's frustration. I've felt frustration in the last year and a half. Mostly with the life and heat stress that kept popping in. I would never attribute one iota of that feeling to someone posting here who was flying high. In this thread about Paul starting out and asking for a little advice, it is my hope that everyone would chime in with how it is working for them, their successes, how they made it through setbacks, and if it wasn't working, what they did to get back on track. I wish Paul well, and I hope at the very least that he feels he has a supportive community where he can come and share his journey, and get some help and focus when he needs it. A fat-burning oasis.

     

    --Jimmy

    Log    PRs

    Anne47


      Welcome to the group Paul. As you've discovered, MAF running can be frustrating and seem slow. i think you have to develop a different mindset when you're doing this training. You have to throw away any feelings of competitiveness both within yourself and with others. When you do that I think(for myself anyway) you are relieved of a great deal of stress. The joy of running at MAF paces is you can run totally relaxed. Your breathing is effortless and you actually feel you can go on forever.

       

      I started out with MAF paces around 18-19/min so perhaps you can take comfort knowing you are already going at 15/min. I received a lot of encouragement from the folks here who even though they can race at very fast paces still do their MAF runs at very slow paces. In this group 'slow' is magic - it will eventually transform  into 'fast' if you are patient.

       

      Anne


      Consistently Slow

         

         

        hmm, one thing I find weird about MAF training people: the ones who've had success with it keep saying they improved a lot. this combined with the initial slow pace can make people want that improvement too much and then that can make them frustrated.

        or maybe I'm wrong but it just seems like that to me because if I read the old threads I keep seeing people here who are whining about not improving / not improving fast enough.

        I dunno if that's common in other forums about other training methods as I don't visit many. so that's just my subjective observation. Smile

         

        so again, to the thread starter / other MAF newbies, be patient, you need to like the slow pace to be able to continue for a long time. Smile or if not, then you can still love the feeling that you are running totally effortless. it can feel like you were meant to run in this natural and easy way.

        (as for myself, I love any pace inside 12:30m/m, I tolerate paces between 12:30-14:30m/m, my legs give up beyond 14:30.)

        Date: 5/9/2009 6:58 AM
        Type: MAFF TEST
        Distance: 5 miles
        Duration: 1:17:09.3
        Pace: 15:26 / mile
        Equipment: ASICS GT-2120 (red)
        Heart Rate:

        Average: 119 / Max: 124

         

         

        Run until the trail runs out.

        2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

        50miler 13:26:18

        Race Less Train More

         Pistol 100 ----01/03/15

        Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

        "The Marble in The Groove"

         

        unsolicited chatter

        http://bkclay.blogspot.com/


        Consistently Slow

          1 year later. Maffing does take a loooooog time. I am comfortable running slow and  alone.

          te: 5/20/2010 4:57 AM
          Type: MAFF TEST
          Distance: 3.01 miles
          Duration: 33:33.34
          Pace: 11:09 / mile
          Equipment: ASICS Gel-2130 GT (Black/Onyx/Sienn)
          Weight: 161 lb
          Heart Rate: Rest: 49 / Average: 124 / Max: 128
          There is no quick fix. By this fall my maff time will probably be around  15:00 if I am lucky. Then it will be back to maff-8 to -15.

          Run until the trail runs out.

          2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

          50miler 13:26:18

          Race Less Train More

           Pistol 100 ----01/03/15

          Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

          "The Marble in The Groove"

           

          unsolicited chatter

          http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

            There is no quick fix. By this fall my maff time will probably be around  15:00 if I am lucky. Then it will be back to maff-8 to -15.

             

             

            I don't understand, if it is 11 now, why do you think it will go to 15 in a few months? I'm confused.

             

            by the way the sort of progress you posted is nice and realistic. nothing like 2 min improvement per month (which is not realistic).

               

               

              The post to Paul on which you commented was to offer him encouragement and hope. 

               

              I would never attribute one iota of that feeling to someone posting here who was flying high.

               

              1: I did not comment on your post. I commented on the forum in general. it is true I quoted a line from your post but then I was not talking about it, I was talking about general trends. so please don't take it personally (you probably didn't, but just in case I'm mentioning this)

               

              2: the main point of my post was: "this combined with the initial slow pace can make people want that improvement too much". if MAF'ing wasn't slow initially, then it wouldn't really matter if people post stuff about progress that's way faster than can be expected usually.

              jimmyb


                 

                1: I did not comment on your post. I commented on the forum in general. it is true I quoted a line from your post but then I was not talking about it, I was talking about general trends. so please don't take it personally (you probably didn't, but just in case I'm mentioning this)

                 

                2: the main point of my post was: "this combined with the initial slow pace can make people want that improvement too much". if MAF'ing wasn't slow initially, then it wouldn't really matter if people post stuff about progress that's way faster than can be expected usually.

                 

                I stand completely corrected.

                 

                 

                Anne,

                 

                Great to see you posting. You've shown a lot of patience in your journey. Your message to Paul about not stressing too much is right on the money. Obsession with any aspect of training and racing is not good. One of the main reasons Dr. Phil advises to do MAF tests every 3-4 weeks is to guard against obsession with improvement. You can improve from one week to the next, but there is always that week when you don't. Perhaps even a month where you don't, for a variety of reasons. That being said, I am currently experimenting with a weekly MAF test to study any possible trends in how MAF test pace fluctuates after (for example) a long run, recovery week, after 3 weeks of of hard training, etc. --also as a workout. MAF tests, or running at MAF is the most stressful MAF running there is. Albeit, it is still not that stressful. So, to add and expand on your message to Paul: experiment, be careful of obsession. Do a weekly MAF test if you wish, but remember it will have fluctuations and anomalies. Like a graph of the price of a stock or mutual fund over five years time, or even a week. I've seen obsession with improvement bring down elite and non-elite runners that I know. They were healthy and improving just fine with their training load, but figured they improve even MORE if they added MORE miles, and MORE intervals. Some end up missing a year or more of something they love to do, because they are injured in a bad way. Anne, when you talk about how running at a low HR can make you feel like you can go forever--so true. THough it can be almost like a temptation or invitation to get crazy (or crazy AGAIN). Gee, I feel so good now, I think it's time to get all Dean Karnazious and do long runs every day in prep for my weekly back-to-back marathon which I am doing to prepare for my twelve 100 milers in 12 days on 12 different mountains in 12 different pairs of panties. Paul, if you do decide to do twelve 100 milers in 12 days on 12 different mountains in 12 different pairs of panties, I fully support your endeavor. And will even donate the panties, with one condition: don't obsess, take recovery days, and remember to hug your family at least 12 times a day.

                 Oops, that's 3 conditions.

                --Jimmy

                 

                Log    PRs


                Consistently Slow

                   

                   

                  I don't understand, if it is 11 now, why do you think it will go to 15 in a few months? I'm confused.

                   

                  by the way the sort of progress you posted is nice and realistic. nothing like 2 min improvement per month (which is not realistic).

                   140+ miles a month + 2 races a month will most likely negatively  effect my aerobic fitness/ maff test. Now until  the half marathon in Nov:

                   

                  PS: The ATC is no longer having a marathon on Thanksgiving.

                  Run until the trail runs out.

                  2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                  50miler 13:26:18

                  Race Less Train More

                   Pistol 100 ----01/03/15

                  Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                  "The Marble in The Groove"

                   

                  unsolicited chatter

                  http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                     140+ miles a month + 2 races a month will most likely negatively  effect my aerobic fitness/ maff test. Now until  the half marathon in Nov:

                     

                     

                    PS: The ATC is no longer having a marathon on Thanksgiving.

                     

                    ah, I should have thought of that interpretation Smile

                     

                    that actually sounds a bit discouraging to me though - I would like my aerobic base (when it gets built finally) to keep up nicely or at least not regress this much. but I guess that requires a very very strong base. Smile

                       

                       

                      One of the main reasons Dr. Phil advises to do MAF tests every 3-4 weeks is to guard against obsession with improvement. You can improve from one week to the next, but there is always that week when you don't. Perhaps even a month where you don't, for a variety of reasons. That being said, I am currently experimenting with a weekly MAF test to study any possible trends in how MAF test pace fluctuates after (for example) a long run, recovery week, after 3 weeks of of hard training, etc. --also as a workout. MAF tests, or running at MAF is the most stressful MAF running there is. Albeit, it is still not that stressful.

                       

                      by MAF test being stressful: do you mean stress for the body from a relatively "high" HR? or the mental stress of knowing you are doing a test? it is due to the latter that I never do any MAF test on a track or anything. I have several loops/routes I come back to when running and if the HR was close to MAF (it usually is) and if the weather and other conditions happened to be similar, then I consider them a MAF test - but never before the run, only afterwards! and most of the time not even then. I feel it is a valid approach to regard all the similar runs as MAF tests and then just look at trend in the fluctuations when looking back to my log 1-2 weeks later.

                      I don't know if that makes any sense Smile but it helped me because if I knew I was doing a MAF test my HR would probably not stay under MAF anymore (to me, I suspect it would be like racing, adrenaline etc. I have not tried so just guessing from things that I know about myself).

                       

                      P.S.: if you just meant physical stress then let's not forget that you actually need to stress your body to improve in training. I believe Maffetone thinks that running at/around MAF is what gives the best stress/load balance for improving.

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