Low HR Training

1

Hanson Training Plan Questions from a LHR Training Perspective (Read 291 times)

    Okay.  I'm a big believer in the Low HR training as it has worked well for me this summer and fall.

     

    I'm also a believer that you need to mix in some speedwork and tempo work as part of your race prep to do your best.

     

    I'm going to work toward a marathon on May 5, 2013 and am thinking of using a modified Hanson Training Plan.

     

    On first glance, their big difference is not having any 20 mile long runs and more volume during the week, but there are some other differences as well.

     

    They do have some interval speed/strength work once a week, but lots of other plans have that.  They also have a Marathon Paced "tempo" run that gets up to 10 miles that is fairly unique to them.  Mainly because MP is pretty slow for a tempo run and 10 miles is pretty long for a tempo run.  It's almost more of a MP prep run more than a tempo run to me.

     

    I think I'm good with both of those mixed in with my high volume of easy LHR runs.  It's not really a base building cycle, it's a race prep cycle and those things fit in the LHR training method to me.

     

    The thing that I'm struggling with is that they want you to run your regular long run (that tops out at 16 miles) at just 45 seconds slower than MP.  That's about 45 seconds to a minute faster than my MAF pace.  They are fine with the other easy runs being around my MAF pace, but they want that long run to be faster.

     

    In some ways this sounds appealing as it will mean less time on my feet on those long runs.  15 minutes less on a 16 miler.

     

    However this goes somewhat against what I've learned under the LHR training on building my aerobic base.

     

    Any thoughts on the somewhat faster long run from a LHR training perspective?  Is this completely at odds with LHR training or with the still decent volume of easy LHR type running (still over 50% of the weekly volume) is it something that can be resolved?

     

    Thanks, Nathan

    Age: 46 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

    Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

    jimmyb


      If you have made solid aerobic development, then an experiment might be in order. Back when I was at my peak I would do progressive type long runs, getting faster and faster, until the last 3-4 miles I was at about marathon HR or pace. Fun to do. If you're not prepared with a solid base of high mileage at MAF, then these runs can take longer to recover from.  I'm sure you're seeking a way to get a faster marathon or other races under your belt. For me, the fastest marathon I achieved (3:22) came from high volume of MAF aerobic miles with a few MRP tempo runs (ala Pfitzinger thrown in) and perhaps  one or two LT tempos. I got to the race feeling strong, and it never felt easier even though I was moving faster than ever.

       

      Experimentation is good. Let your MAF tests guide you through. Your aerobic speed should improve from these runs. You'll either respond to doing a long run at MRP-45 seconds, or you won't.

       

      I'm not sure these runs will give you any more physical benefit than a lower intensity one, but will definitely give you some mental benefit. The last few miles of a progression long run can be mentally challenging. Feels almost like the last 6 of the marathon. MRP tempos give the same mental benefit--confidence that the pace feels good and doable.

       

      Good luck, N!

      Log

      Runningraja


        I think with the long tempo and the intervals you will have more than enough anerobic training. If I was you I would try to keep my maf runs way above 50% of your miles. You could always switch weeks. Long tempo one week, faster long run the next. Is this your first marathon? I would be very leary of not doing any 20 milers. Is 16 the longest they run. I ran my first in chicago, and I did two 22 milers, and I am very confident that those are the two workouts that most benifited me. Especially mentally, but physically too. When I got past 20 in chicago, I still had a lot left and was able to finish strong, and I'm quite sure those long runs are the reason why. I even went out faster than planned, and was able to hold my pace and finish easy under goal. (goal was under 4, finish was 3:35)

          The peak 16 miler is kind of their trademark thing.  I am leaning toward throwing in one 18 miler, but the way they make their plan, it makes sense that the 16 miler is enough.

           

          Most plans are something like Friday short easy run, Saturday long run, Sunday rest day.  Their plan is Thursday, MP Tempo run; Friday, easy 8 miles; Saturday  easy 10 miles; Sunday 16 miles; Monday 8 miles, etc.  You go into the long run with tired legs from the other runs instead of bracketing the long run with very low mileage or even rest days.  That part makes sense to me and I can deal with it.

           

          The part that makes me scratch my head is the faster long run when you are already doing a decent length MP run on Thursday that peaks out at 10 miles PLUS warmup and cooldown, so at least 12 miles total with 10 at MP. 

           

          If I do my long runs at MAF I couldn't get 18 miles in by the time I got to 3 hours so the 20 mile long run is probably not going to happen for me.  Even at MP + 45 seconds I couldn't get a 20 miler in under the 3 hour mark.  Some things I've been reading lately are even talking about runs longer than 2:45 start to do more harm than good.

           

          When it all comes down to it I guess 45 seconds pace difference is not going to make or break the plan one way or the other.

          Age: 46 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

          Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27


          Bad Ass

            I have not tried Hanson, but I had a coach during my last training program and his workouts included speedwork and MP paced runs.  What I did was to do all my easy runs by HR and (based upon a race test I did), did my speedwork and MP paced runs by its respective HR.  For example, if I was doing HMP miles, I would run those miles at the estimated MP for a HM and the like.  Not sure if that's what you were wondering.

            Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

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            "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

              I'm off to Barnes and Noble to get the book today. I'm leaning towards a spring marathon (first one.....yikes) and an thinking about using the Hanson method for taining. I tried to do the Phitz 18-55 plan this spring for a goal HM, but ended up getting a pretty severe stress reaction and missing my HM due to having to stop running for a couple weeks.

               

              The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

               

              2014 Goals:

               

              Stay healthy

              Enjoy life

               

                For me, the fastest marathon I achieved (3:22) came from high volume of MAF aerobic miles with a few MRP tempo runs (ala Pfitzinger thrown in) and perhaps  one or two LT tempos. I got to the race feeling strong, and it never felt easier even though I was moving faster than ever.

                 

                just curious; how often did you do the MRP runs and the LT runs per week?

                jimmyb


                   

                  just curious; how often did you do the MRP runs and the LT runs per week?

                  Hi C,

                   

                  This is a breakdown of that 15 week period that started in early August, in prep for a marathon in November:

                   

                  I started with a short aerobic base period purely under MAF for 6 weeks. Most of which was under MAF -10. I had done a much longer aerobic base period at the beginning of the year in prep for a spring marathon and race season, so it would be my second of the year. Work at LT was done as intervals, and the rest of the tempo work was done @ marathon race pace HR (MRP):

                   

                  week miles %MAF  %aboveMAF type of tempo or speed work
                  1 76 100% 0% n/a
                  2 101 100% 0% n/a
                  3 102 100% 0% n/a
                  4 100 100% 0% n/a
                  5 44 100% 0% n/a
                  6 102 96% 4% 4 miles @ MRP @ end of 21  mile long run
                  7 100 85% 15% 12 mile tempo @ MRP with 3 mile cooldown
                  8 101 88% 12% 12 miles between MAF and MRP (progression long run)
                  9 56 77% 23% half marathon PR (1:34:27)
                  10 87 86% 14% 12 miles between MAF and MRP (progression long run)
                  11 34 100% 0% n/a
                  12 61 83% 17% 10 miles of 20 mile long run between MAF and MAF+10
                  13 57 83% 17% 4xLT intervals totaling 2.5 mi, on another day 7 of 14 miles @MRP
                  14 37 100% 0% n/a
                  15 41 37% 63% marathon PR (3:22)

                   

                  That was a fun training period.

                  --JimmyCool

                  Log

                    thanks for the data. Smile wow, 100miles a week?! nice...

                     

                    12 mile tempo @ MRP - that one sounds like a really hard workout Smile another wow Smile

                     

                    I see it was roughly once a week above MAF.

                    jimmyb


                      thanks for the data. Smile wow, 100miles a week?! nice...

                       

                      12 mile tempo @ MRP - that one sounds like a really hard workout Smile another wow Smile

                       

                      I see it was roughly once a week above MAF.

                       

                      Nostalgia. The things I did when I was 45.Cool

                       

                      The 12 mile tempos at MRP aren't that hard. You're running a pace you should be able to hold for 26 miles. Actually, marathons are pretty easy up to mile 22-23 (if your fit, of course). After that, it gets tough.

                      Log

                        Kind of interesting that this little side track took place on this Hanson Training Plan Question, because the Marathon Pace Tempo run is a big part of their program.  You peak at 10 miles at marathon pace with 1 to 3 miles of warm up and cool down on each end.  I personally am doing 2 mile warm ups and 1 mile cool downs so my MP Tempo runs will end up being 13 total miles with 10 at MP.  Not too far off from Jimmyb's 12 mile marathon pace Tempo run did.  I'm going to peak at only around 65 miles though.

                         

                        They have you do 3 of those with the last one 10 days out from the marathon.  They aren't much for tapering miles, just cutting out most of the more difficult work and switching it for easy.

                        Age: 46 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                        Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

                           

                          The 12 mile tempos at MRP aren't that hard. You're running a pace you should be able to hold for 26 miles. Actually, marathons are pretty easy up to mile 22-23 (if your fit, of course). After that, it gets tough.

                           

                          I guess it depends on how you determine your MRP... if you are being very conservative then sure it can be an easy workout Smile

                          jimmyb


                             

                            I guess it depends on how you determine your MRP... if you are being very conservative then sure it can be an easy workout Smile

                             

                            Of course, you need to be prepared for ithese runs. You should already have a solid aerobic base built, and be able to run a good 17-20 miler.

                            The mental prep from them is invaluable.

                            Log

                              Had a mini breakthrough on my training yesterday.  Not sure if it was the result of getting my HR up on a 2 mile race last Saturday or if I'm finally adjusting to the new training load or what, but I had a really good MP Tempo run.

                               

                              Ran the same exact course last Tuesday and then again this Thursday.  2 mile warm up then 7 miles at Marathon Pace then 1 mile cool down.  One item that was not the same was that the temperature was 10 degrees cooler (69 last week and 59 this week), so that probably affected it some, but I don't think that explains all of the improvement.

                               

                              Last Tuesday the 7 MP miles were at an avg pace of 8:38 and avg HR was 167 (86%) which was higher than I wanted, but I was running based on pace, not HR.

                               

                              Yesterday the 7 MP miles were at an avg pace of 8:34 and avg HR was 161 (83%) which was right at the HR that I am targeting, but my pace was faster than I was supposed to run.  I was feeling so good I couldn't help myself and pushed it in and ran the last mile of the Tempo at 8:05 pace which is why the avg pace is a little fast and also, that spiked my avg HR up to where it ended up, it was under 160 for most of the Tempo.

                               

                              I think it was a combination of last week wasn't a great run and this week was a really good run when it was all said and done.

                               

                              14 mile long run at MP + 45 seconds on the agenda for Sunday.

                              Age: 46 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                              Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27