Low HR Training

Half Marathon Training @ MAF advice needed (Read 245 times)

posted: 12/10/2009 at 7:18 PM
modified: 12/10/2009 at 7:21 PM

I'm planning on doing my first half marathon the end of March. I am new to Low HR training and was hoping someone could share a good training program.  I've been training at my MAF for about 3 months now but have really not seen any results yet as far as faster MAF times. Hopefully faster MAF times will come. I HAVE lost 15 pounds, which I've tried to do for years exersising at high heart rates, so I'm very happy with this part of it.

 

I was thinking of using the Hal Higdon novice program all at MAF...no strength or races.

 

Any other suggestions would be appreciated!

 

thanks,

John

C-R


Aaack!

posted: 12/10/2009 at 8:14 PM

John - welcome. If you keep your log on RA, open it up so we can be more specific in our help.

 

More questions at this time. When you say train at MAF, do you mean you run at you MAF for all runs? How many runs per week? How many miles per week? Longest run to date? 3 months of running only base? MAF for you = what number? Goal for the HM? Early or late March? Previous races + details? Previous exercise prior to LHR? Any additional exercises done during this past 3 month cycle?

 

That will help the rest of the group chime in more effectively.

 


"He conquers who endures" - Persius
"Life is tough. It's even tougher when you're stupid." - John Whayne New quote needed. Purdey found the secret

Running to Beat Cancer
posted: 12/10/2009 at 10:59 PM
Thanks C-R...  I've opened up my Training log. All I have in there is my MAF test though.

Here's my story 

For 15 plus years I have run off an on and I am very active in other activities. Bike, swim, surf. I've just always exersised not knowing what my HR was. When I got my HR monitor in May and started tracking my HR. It averaged 165 -170 on most runs!  That's when I started looking for HR info on the internet and came across Dr. Phil Maffetone...and so glad I did..

Since the beginning of September, all my runs except for one, have been at or under 135 which is my MAF.  180-45

My last MAF test  last week was done at 130. I think I overtrained in October/November, because I had an IT band flare up so I cut back on my running and reduced MAF by 5. I increased my mileage/time to much too soon. Jimmy has helped me with training load on the 'Expose you Slow Twitchers' forum

I run 3 to 4 times a week for somewhere between 15 - 20 miles. Longest MAF run has been 6.5 miles.  I ran a 10K race in November, not at MAF.  My time for that was 63 minutes.  I also mountain bike and swim for cross training.

 I've done a few 5K races over the years. Just last year I was training for this same half marathon but had an injury and did not do it.  I ran the 5K instead. My time was 25:11. My longest distance during this training was 12 miles. This was before I discovered the Maffetone Method.

The race is on the 27th of March. I really don't have a time I just want to finish it.

thanks for your time,

John



Dr. MLK,Jr brithplace

posted: 12/12/2009 at 12:02 PM
modified: 12/12/2009 at 3:08 PM
Quote from jvrunning on 12/10/2009 at 10:59 PM:
Thanks C-R...  I've opened up my Training log. All I have in there is my MAF test though.

Here's my story 

For 15 plus years I have run off an on and I am very active in other activities. Bike, swim, surf. I've just always exersised not knowing what my HR was. When I got my HR monitor in May and started tracking my HR. It averaged 165 -170 on most runs!  That's when I started looking for HR info on the internet and came across Dr. Phil Maffetone...and so glad I did..

Since the beginning of September, all my runs except for one, have been at or under 135 which is my MAF.  180-45

My last MAF test  last week was done at 130. I think I overtrained in October/November, because I had an IT band flare up so I cut back on my running and reduced MAF by 5. I increased my mileage/time to much too soon. Jimmy has helped me with training load on the 'Expose you Slow Twitchers' forum

I run 3 to 4 times a week for somewhere between 15 - 20 miles. Longest MAF run has been 6.5 miles.  I ran a 10K race in November, not at MAF.  My time for that was 63 minutes.  I also mountain bike and swim for cross training.

 I've done a few 5K races over the years. Just last year I was training for this same half marathon but had an injury and did not do it.  I ran the 5K instead. My time was 25:11. My longest distance during this training was 12 miles. This was before I discovered the Maffetone Method.

The race is on the 27th of March. I really don't have a time I just want to finish it.

thanks for your time,

John


 Do you stay at Maff for all your activities? Are you doing a WU before Maff test? Log on to team Oregon pace wizard  to get a good idea of a pace for the HM. I used it for  my HM and beat the predicted time. I did adjust the T/O pace time to match the Maff pace time.

Run until the trail runs out
2010** Run 125 miles a month
10k <50:00


Dr. MLK,Jr brithplace

posted: 12/12/2009 at 3:12 PM
Quote posted: 7/24/2009 at 8:13 AM

 

jimmyb

posted: 2/20/2008 at 7:54 AM
modified: 2/20/2008 at 9:14 AM
Quote
This thread is to discuss predicting race pace based on different indicators, most importantly to this forum, MAF tests, and other ideas....

USING MAF TEST AS A MARATHON RACE PACE PREDICTOR.

On page 53 of Training for Endurance 2nd Revised Edition by Phil Maffetone ©2000. Maffetone gives a chart based on his" hundreds of tests and several racing seasons." I popped the 5k times on Maffetone's chart into the McMillan calculator and added the equivalent marathon times. I took the rate of slowing at MAF of 8:00-10:00 MAF pace on Maffetone's chart and figured up to 13:00. This could be way off, as if you notice on his chart there is a jump between 7-8:00 that increases twice the rate of slowing on most of the chart. I'm hoping your data can help out with all this. What I figured is separated from and above Maffetone's chart:

This may not be accurate, be careful, it may not be wise to use it to determine your pace for a marathon:

MAF....5k pace....5k time.....Marathon.....Mpace

13:00...9:00.........27:57..........4:32:29.......10:25
12:30...8:45.........27:11..........4:25:00.......10:07
12:00...8:30.........26:23..........4:17:12.........9:50
11:30...8:15.........25:37..........4:09:44.........9:32
11:00...8:00.........24:51..........4:02:15.........9:15
10:30..7:45..........24:04..........3:54:37.........8:58

10:00..7:30..........23:18..........3:47:09...........8:41
9:30....7:15..........22:31..........3:39:31...........8:23
9:00....7:00..........21:45..........3:32:02...........8:06
8:30....6:45..........20:58..........3:24:24...........7:49
8:00....6:30..........20:12..........3:16:55...........7:31
7:30....6:00..........18:38..........3:01:39...........6:56
7:00....5:30..........17:05..........2:46:32...........6:22
6:30....5:15..........16:19..........2:39:04...........6:05
6:00....5:00..........15:32..........2:31:26...........5:47
5:45....4:45..........14:45..........2:23:48...........5:30
5:30....4:30..........13:59..........2:16:19...........5:12
5:15....4:20..........13:28..........2:11:17...........5:01
5:00....4:15..........13:12....... ..2:08:41...........4:55

MY TIMES AND MAF TESTS
Using MAF of 180-age +5 beats
Marathon.................time.........pace....best MAF test near the marathon
Sugarloaf 2006......3:30:36.......8:02................8:57
Philly 2006............3:22:10.......7:43................8:31


Pretty close, I beat the predictor by aprox 1:30-2:00 minutes each time. I did these MAF tests on a treadmill in 65-70ºF with a 1% incline, and on tired legs. Perhaps, I could have done the tests faster in a cooler room, no incline, and rested. So, perhaps Maffetone and his chart can be used as an indicator. I'll have to get more data as I go.

If anyone has any data to add to this thread, please share. It would be interesting to see how your data matches up with Maffetone's chart, and my addition to it.

--Jimmy
♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
Run until the trail runs out
2010** Run 125 miles a month
10k <50:00


Before I found Running

posted: 12/12/2009 at 4:15 PM
modified: 12/12/2009 at 4:16 PM
Quote from runnerclay on 12/12/2009 at 12:02 PM:

 Do you stay at Maff for all your activities? Are you doing a WU before Maff test? Log on to team Oregon pace wizard  to get a good idea of a pace for the HM. I used it for  my HM and beat the predicted time. I did adjust the T/O pace time to match the Maff pace time.

 

Can you provide a link? I'm going to try my first HM in April (Earth Day HM) and would like to see what king of a time I can expect.

 

I also saw the chart you added from JimmyB, but I'm assuming a HM pace would be a little quicker.

Run, Homer, Run
C-R


Aaack!

posted: 12/12/2009 at 6:24 PM

JV - ok. If you just want to finish and have no time expectation, then its building a base and getting in the miles. You don't really need a "canned" training plan to get to the finish line. You just need miles. I would suggest building you weekly miles to a peak of 35-40 with a good long run on weekends and nice distance run in the middle of the week. If you are currently at 6.5 for your long run add a mile per week. You will get to the magic 13 prior to the race to build some confidence. Run these below MAF and you should be just fine. Do some MAF tests every 3 or 4 weeks to gauge your progress. Add a two week taper if you like but if you are truely staying at or below MAF, I would only take a couple of days rest prior to the race.

 

Try not to get hung up on the training plans. Running below MAF is designed to minimize stress on the body and you will be very pleased about how well you can build time on your feet without stressing yourself too much. The training plans like Higdn, Pfitz, Daniels, etc. are designed with other thoughts in mind.

 

Hope that helps and good luck. Keep posting in the daily threads and we can help along the way.


"He conquers who endures" - Persius
"Life is tough. It's even tougher when you're stupid." - John Whayne New quote needed. Purdey found the secret

Running to Beat Cancer
posted: 12/12/2009 at 7:37 PM
runnerclay

Yes, I do try to keep all of my activities at or below MAFF. Surfing is the most difficult to do, paddling back out trying not to take it on the head.  
When I first started in September I didn't, but did start a 15 minute WU and CD after a couple weeks into it and started counting that in my training load.
I used the Oregon Wizard on the 10K I did in November. I didn't beat it but was pretty close to it's prediction.  I'll try it again as I get closer to the race in March...hopefully I'll start seeing some improvements soon.




C-R

I'll have to build back up to the 6.5. I'm taking it slow right now because of my IT band issue.  Last week I ran about 9 miles total, 150 minutes.  3 miles each run.  I'll prob do that again next week and see how it goes. Then I'll try adding a mile or so each week from there. 

Thanks to both for your input.

John


FW Half 11/8/09

posted: 12/12/2009 at 8:10 PM

Quote from jvrunning on 12/12/2009 at 7:37 PM:
C-R
I'll have to build back up to the 6.5. I'm taking it slow right now because of my IT band issue.
John

 John, You might try walk/run Gallowalking as well to let IT band issue clear up while still building miles. I used it since last spring until a short time ago as I phase into continuous lhr approach.

bob e v
goals half marathon 11/8/20009, 2:59:44! with a head cold no less! 10k 12/12/2009 pr goal 11:30
history: blessed heart attack 3/15/2008; c25k july 2008 first 5k 10/26/2008, 62nd birthday; 1st 10k 2/28/2009 - 50 wks from heart attack to 10k
pb's 5k 36:06 10/18/09; 10k 1:15:36.4 2/28/09; 15k 2:08:20.9 9/7/09; half 2:59:44
C-R


Aaack!

posted: 12/12/2009 at 8:46 PM

Bob is correct. Galoway run-walk is a good idea. Walking also enhance aerobic fitness.

 

For ITBS, try the old cross over stretch. While standing - cross one leg in front of the other and try to touch your toes. You can also cross over and instead of touching your toes, lean upright into a wall. Both of these are staples for me and helped the time I had ITBS.


"He conquers who endures" - Persius
"Life is tough. It's even tougher when you're stupid." - John Whayne New quote needed. Purdey found the secret

Running to Beat Cancer
posted: 12/12/2009 at 9:47 PM
bobev  -I like the sound of this...I do a lot of run/walk anyway to keep my HR @MAF.  How did you determine your R/W ratio?  did you use your MAF Test Average mile?
 ...from Galloway
Run-walk-run ratio should correspond to the training pace used:
8 min/mi—run 4 min/walk 35 seconds
9 min/mi— 4 min run-1 min walk
10 min/mi—-3:1
11 min/mi—2:30-1
12 min/mi—-2:1
13 min/mi—-1:1
14 min/mi—30 sec run/30 sec walk
15 min/mi—30 sec/45 sec
16 min/mi—30 sec/60 sec


C-R  I know that stretch oh so well, It really has helped me a lot in addition to ART from my Chiropractor, and the dreaded foam roller. My runs went well last week. I didn't feel it at all. I just have to be careful not to do to much too soon again.


FW Half 11/8/09

posted: 12/13/2009 at 3:20 PM
modified: 12/13/2009 at 3:21 PM

jv - I used Gallowalking before finding this forum and realizing, at least for me, it was a form of aerobic interval training. I finally used Galloway's table after starting with run 10, walk 1, then run 5, walk 1, finally for a 13 pace run/walk of 1 min each and that worked to ease the ITBS (I also used the cross over stretch - a lot, all day in fact until it eased up), and calf stretches of various kinds. I used the 1/1 ratio from about mid May thru to October when I started reading about lnr.

 

I think that has allowed me to build a sold aerobic base with which to play with. I've run two halves using 1/1 at the start and extending running after mi 7 (although knowing about Atlanta's hills I extended more on the downhills, and reduced running on the up on the backend).

 

I surprised myself yesterday by having longest continuous run yet. After warming up I ran at maf-10 (97 for me) for 5mi and almost 70 minutes, for an avg pace of 13:53 - only 7 seconds slower than my half pb!!! AND - I had zero recovery time - no lactic acid build up. After the halves my quads hurt for days. Wow! Blows me away. I took a look at my log and its also about 30 sec faster than hr=97 pace from a month ago. Intriguing!

 

I am sold on this method!!!

bob e v
goals half marathon 11/8/20009, 2:59:44! with a head cold no less! 10k 12/12/2009 pr goal 11:30
history: blessed heart attack 3/15/2008; c25k july 2008 first 5k 10/26/2008, 62nd birthday; 1st 10k 2/28/2009 - 50 wks from heart attack to 10k
pb's 5k 36:06 10/18/09; 10k 1:15:36.4 2/28/09; 15k 2:08:20.9 9/7/09; half 2:59:44


Dr. MLK,Jr brithplace

posted: 12/13/2009 at 3:59 PM
Quote from bobev on 12/13/2009 at 3:20 PM:

I surprised myself yesterday by having longest continuous run yet. After warming up I ran at maf-10 (97 for me) for 5mi and almost 70 minutes, for an avg pace of 13:53 - only 7 seconds slower than my half pb!!! AND - I had zero recovery time - no lactic acid build up. After the halves my quads hurt for days. Wow! Blows me away. I took a look at my log and its also about 30 sec faster than hr=97 pace from a month ago. Intriguing!

 

I am sold on this method!!!

Rest: 52 / Average: 116 / Max: 125.  5 miles  pace 15:43. Looking  at your numbers tells me  I need to slow down or cut back my mileage. Great job.
Run until the trail runs out
2010** Run 125 miles a month
10k <50:00
posted: 12/13/2009 at 5:41 PM
Wow that's great! My HR is always moving up and down from Maf- 10 to Maf when I run...I can hardly ever keep it steady.

 I think the 1/1 is where I need to be too. I might give that a try today and see how it goes. My thoughts with doing that though is that my HR will go below the MAF-10 when I walk and then climb back up when I run.  I guess I will still be getting a good workout?

 I think I caught my It band before it got really bad, but I don't want it to come back. It's just really hard sometimes not to just go out and run!

thanks again for all the info!

John


FW Half 11/8/09

posted: 12/13/2009 at 9:54 PM

A couple of things. I am on beta blockers so that may help me manage changes in HR, not being a medical dr I can't be sure. I do know my hr can do strange things. Like the other morning I was trying very lhr with hr=87 and was walking briskly hr hit 77 then suddenly dropped to 73 and stayed there... I hadn't change pace and was on level ground at the time. Go figure.

 

Second thing, I think I am benefiting from the six months of run 1/walk 1 in which didn't have me running long enough for hr to get very high and exceed maf by much, if ever. it was more like continual aerobic intervals.  I did the 1:1 in order to heal and also to get through the north TX summer when it can be in the upper 70's, low 80's at 5 am in the morning! It was warmer and more humid this year than when I started running in July 08. I extended my long run time to over 3hrs in order to convince my self I could finish a half.

bob e v
goals half marathon 11/8/20009, 2:59:44! with a head cold no less! 10k 12/12/2009 pr goal 11:30
history: blessed heart attack 3/15/2008; c25k july 2008 first 5k 10/26/2008, 62nd birthday; 1st 10k 2/28/2009 - 50 wks from heart attack to 10k
pb's 5k 36:06 10/18/09; 10k 1:15:36.4 2/28/09; 15k 2:08:20.9 9/7/09; half 2:59:44