Low HR Training

12

Train at MAF HR, Race at Marco HR (Read 1100 times)

    What My Plan is so far is to Run the HM by HR

    not by pace or pace increments.

    But by HR and HR increments.

     

    That's what I meant by MARCO.

     

    I thought the point of MARCO is to run at certain HR's, not at certain paces.  Confused

     

    The first 2 miles would be warmup to and through MAF

     

    Miles

    1-2...........MAF -20 -10, -0

    3-6...........MAF +10

    7-9...........MAF +20

    10-12.......MAF +30

    13 ...........MAF +40

     

    I was thinking something along those lines.

    In the first mile of a segment, on the low end

    Middle mile of a segment, in the mid-range

    Last mile of the segment, in the upper range

     

    I would just set my Garmin HR alarms for the MAF + number listed and 10 below,

    and try to stay either the Lower, Mid, or Upper range as the 3-mile segments go by.

     

    That's what I was talking about anyway  Big grin

    Keep in mind this next HM will likely be a 3:00 finish time.

     

     

    are you trying to race this at full effort or just jog it?

     

    in the latter case that plan may be okay.

     

    in the other case (racing with full effort), the start is too conservative. it will definitely be a pace that's too slow

    jimmyb


      I agree with C in terms of warm-up. If you want to run your best possible race, warm-up before the race. I always run at least 20 minutes before each race at a very easy pace, one that keeps me below MAF.  This establishes fat-burning and allows me to start the race at a harder effort. I always attempt to start about 20 seconds slower than planned average pace for the half or marathon in the first mile. Getting to average pace by mile 2-4, depending on the length of the race. If you were using HR, then perhaps 10-15 beats lower than planned average pace should be fine, then just follow your HR plan after the first few miles.

       

      Still, your plan is just fine, and it won't hurt you at all to use the first 2 miles as warm-up. It will do all the same things as I stated above, and leave you some gas to run a strong second half of the race.

       

      Keep us posted, Frances!

       

      --Jimmy

      Log    PRs

        It's worth bearing in mind that constant pace is not constant effort or constant heart rate... if you run an HM at constant pace your heart race (and perceived effort) will rise through the course of the race.  (Well - actually it might not - but that almost certainly indicates that you're running at a slower pace than you're capable of.)

          It's worth bearing in mind that constant pace is not constant effort or constant heart rate... if you run an HM at constant pace your heart race (and perceived effort) will rise through the course of the race.  (Well - actually it might not - but that almost certainly indicates that you're running at a slower pace than you're capable of.)

           

          yea, and I actually think constant effort is pretty well correlated with constant heart rate - except for actual cardiac drift from dehydration etc. because after that the HR may be higher than the subjective effort.

           

          the fun thing is, I noticed that constant pace will correlate well with constant effort and HR if I go below MAF. past 180-age+2 or so HR, that relationship between pace and effort degrades... constant effort/HR will mean slowing pace. the higher the HR the more so. in intervals, the pace is hard enough that I notice the effort increasing within a few minutes. at slower pace, it will take longer before effort noticeably increases. same for HR Smile

           

          there was one exception from your rule - my last HM race. my HR went stable after half way and my perceived effort for "aerobic load"*, as well. it would not increase even with faster pace. I could not get to LT HR no matter how much I increased speed... but this was done under abnormal circumstances anyway (I just didn't know that at the time). HRM can be a bit less useful then :P

           

          *: by perceived effort I meant the feeling that depends on your level of oxygen consumption and heart rate. the higher the HR, the more effort you feel. this is what didn't increase for me in that HM. (legs were a very different story.. perceived effort for the legs did increase)


          Beginner all over again

             

            warm-up before the race.

             

            I always run at least 20 minutes before each race at a very easy pace, one that keeps me below MAF. 

             

            This establishes fat-burning and allows me to start the race at a harder effort.

             

             

             

            I agree with that,

            and I'd like to do that

             

            problem is my HMs coming up are all HUGE fields, with several starting waves.

            I'm going to be in the Back with the Baby Strollers and it gets pretty packed in there.

             

            I suppose I could WarmUp by slow jog-walking reverse-course, trying to time it to when my wave starts moving.....but that's so hard to gauge.

             

            My last HM was a HUGE field too, and it would move 20 yards, then stagnate, stand around, move 20 yards, then stagnate, stand around

            So I was thinking that won't work as a warmup

             

            I'm just hoping to come in under 3 hours.

            Big grin

             


            Consistently Slow

              I ran this HM by HR. MAFF 125

              Intervals (GPS Interval)
               TypeDistanceTimeTotal TimePaceAvg HRMax HRNotes
              1 Interval 1 mi 9:22.35 9:22.35 9:23 134 142  
              2 Interval 1 mi 9:43.17 19:05.52 9:44 142 153  
              3 Interval 1 mi 8:48.23 27:53.75 8:49 152 166  
              4 Interval 1 mi 9:15.83 37:09.58 9:16 157 166  
              5 Interval 1 mi 8:26.88 45:36.46 8:27 156 166  
              6 Interval 1 mi 8:39.72 54:16.18 8:40 157 169  
              7 Interval 1 mi 8:50.77 1:03:06.95 8:51 158 171  
              8 Interval 1 mi 8:35.87 1:11:42.82 8:36 157 169  
              9 Interval 1 mi 8:05.72 1:19:48.54 8:06 158 165  
              10 Interval 1 mi 8:55.22 1:28:43.76 8:56 166 173  
              11 Interval 1 mi 8:54.06 1:37:37.82 8:55 166 176  
              12 Interval 1 mi 8:57.26 1:46:35.08 8:58 165 175  
              13 Interval 1 mi 8:15.60 1:54:50.68 8:16 174 179  
              14 Interval 0.27 mi 2:07.08 1:56:57.76 7:51 176 178  

              Run until the trail runs out.

              2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

              50miler 13:26:18

              Race Less Train More

               

              Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

              "The Marble in The Groove"

               

              unsolicited chatter

              http://bkclay.blogspot.com/


              Beginner all over again

                I ran this HM by HR. MAFF 125

                 

                Thanks

                I'm going to come back and look at this

                 

                I am thinking of doing my HM

                 

                Mile#

                1 MAF -10 (warmup after wave-start, stuck in back corral with the baby strollers)

                2 MAF +0

                 

                3 MAF +10    (140s)

                4   "

                5   "

                 

                6 MAF+20     (150s)

                7   "

                8   "

                 

                9  MAF +30    (160s)

                10   "

                11   "

                 

                12 MAF +40   (170s)

                13    "

                 

                  Another data point... here's a graph of HR vs pace for an HM I ran earlier this year. I think this is about as quickly as I could have run for the shape I was in on the day. The pace moves around a little bit as the course was somewhat undulating... but it's more or less even pacing with some slowing down uphill and speeding up downhill. You can see that the HR takes about 5km to reach the high 170s and then stays there.

                  jimmyb


                    Just to add to PR's post. Here's my splits and HR from the Sugarloaf Marathon in 2006:

                     

                    1) 8:30  152                
                    2) 8:32  159            
                    3) 8:16  162               
                    4) 8:11   167
                    5) 8:10  168
                    6) 8:11  171
                    7) 8:17 171
                    8) 8:13 170
                    9) 9:00  173
                    10) 8:35  171
                    11) 7:58  169
                    12) 7:46  168
                    13) 7:38  175
                    14) 7:46   175
                    15) 7:47   173
                    16) 7:35  172
                    17) 7:25   174
                    18) 7:46  176
                    19) 7:36  179
                    20) 7:51  181
                    21) 7:58   181
                    22)  8:17  180
                    23) 8:18  179
                    24) 7:54  183
                    25)  7:33  187
                    25.2) 1:42  189
                    26.2)  7:33  189

                    First  13.1) 1:49:15    8:20
                    Second 13.1)  1:41:17  7:44  

                    Total: 3:30:32 BQ


                    ist half 152-175   ave 167   85%
                    2nd half  175-189   ave 179   91%

                    average HR: 173

                     

                    By mile 22, I began to slow. Lots of negative thinking. Then I decided to just race the guy who just passed me. I ended up running my fastest splits. I also pushed my HR up into my 5k range. I reached near MHR by the end (saw 198).

                     

                    That's when I fully realized that, if you haven't burned up your glycogen, you can shut off your mind and not only maintain speed, but even pick it up a bit. It hurts it's hard, but you can do it.

                     

                    Notice the HR for the first half is below average, and the second half above average.

                     

                    --Jimmy

                    Log    PRs

                      I wish I could post a nice graph or splits of one of my half marathons. but neither of the two that I ran so far is a good example. in the first one I started out too fast, in the second one I was having issues from iron deficiency which had an effect on my HR and pace(I just didn't know it yet).

                       

                      too bad really. I'll show them anyway, maybe someone finds it interesting or helpful

                       

                       

                       

                      1st HM:

                       

                      note that most splits are 1000m (0.62mile) long but some of the splits were not exactly 1000m...

                       

                      split ----------- avgHR, maxHR

                      01. 05:37.6 --- 177, 184
                      02. 05:58.7 --- 186, 190
                      03. 05:38.5 --- 187, 192
                      04. 05:26.6 --- 189, 194
                      05. 06:04.5 --- 193, 197
                      06. 06:08.4 --- 193, 196
                      07. 06:16.2 --- 191, 195
                      08. 06:43.4 --- 191, 193
                      09. 06:00.2 --- 191, 195
                      10. 05:56.9 --- 192, 194
                      11. 06:51.1 --- 193, 196
                      12. 06:18.8 --- 192, 195
                      13. 05:54.9 --- 192, 195
                      14. 06:45.8 --- 194, 196
                      15. 06:01.2 --- 196, 198
                      16. 06:27.1 --- 196, 198
                      17. 06:37.3 --- 194, 197
                      18. 07:10.0 --- 192, 195
                      19. 05:43.6 --- 196, 199
                      20. 08:00.8 --- 195, 198
                      21. 06:19.0 --- 197, 199
                      22. 01:33.4 --- 201, 203

                       

                      total time 2:13, avg HR 192.

                       

                      my comment: this one is not one HR plan you'd want to follow Smile strong positive split..

                       

                       

                       

                      2nd HM:

                       

                      all splits 1000m (0.62mile) long unless otherwise noted.

                       

                      split: --- avgHR - maxHR

                       

                      5:17 --- 172, 178
                      5:10 --- 177, 181
                      5:17 --- 179, 182
                      5:11 --- 179, 183
                      10:30(2000m split) --- 182, 187
                      5:20 --- 185, 188 (on slooow grass/trail. hated it)
                      5:14 --- 185, 188
                      5:00 --- 185, 187
                      4:59 --- 186, 188
                      5:00 --- 188, 191
                      5:00 --- 189, 191
                      5:02 --- 189, 191
                      4:54 --- 190, 191
                      4:56 --- 190, 192
                      5:02 --- 188, 190
                      5:22 --- 188, 190 (again on slooow grass/trail)
                      5:09 --- 189, 190
                      4:52 --- 188, 190
                      4:59 --- 189, 190
                      4:42 --- 190, 191
                      +100m 0:27 --- 190, 191

                       

                      total time 1:47, avg HR 185.

                       

                      this one consisted of two loops, 1st loop 54:47, 2nd loop 52:40, so it was a definite negative split.

                       

                      my comment: forget the HR splits because it was done under abnormal circumstances Smile but it is a good example of how to do pacing. not a good example for HR planning, only pace planning. 

                      -----

                       

                      based on the above and on experiences in other races (lasting between 20mins and 90mins) I think that in my next HM I should start at around 179-180 and then plan to stay under 190 until halfway then when I pass halfway I will let it go past 190 (increase speed if needed to reach 190), and then for the last 20-30minutes I let HR pass 194 and then it does not matter anymore, give it all energy I have left. -- this is similar to what I did in the hill race a few days ago and it worked pretty well and that race was only slightly shorter than a HM.

                        labhiker


                          Does anyone have an active link to MARCO?  or similar HR & Pace calculators

                           

                          For some reason the link on FrancesRe's post is not working form me.

                           

                          Thanks

                          labhiker

                          jimmyb


                            Does anyone have an active link to MARCO?  or similar HR & Pace calculators

                             

                            For some reason the link on FrancesRe's post is not working form me.

                             

                            Thanks

                             

                            I just found this cool thing called Google, it's a kind of search engine, and entered "MARCO Calculator" and found this:

                             

                            http://feelrace.com/marathonperfect.html

                             

                            Hope that helps, Lab.

                            Log    PRs

                              hey wow marco still exists? Smile

                               

                              just for the heck of it, I entered my actual marathon result and my maxHR (211) and got this estimate:

                               

                              Your average heart rate during the race is: 182 bpm (beats per minute)

                               

                              also it gives me a plan that has me running at 190+ HR from 30km at a slightly faster than average pace for the entire marathon.

                               

                              yes, these seem pretty realistic; my actual avg was 183 bpm and I did run near 190 and at the end a bit over 190 for the last part, 30km-42km, though pace there was slightly slower than average, so yeah it kind of matches if assuming a bit faster pace.

                               

                              I always liked this calculator and I can still recommend it to everyone Tongue

                              12