Low HR Training

1

Gas exchange analysis advice please (Read 580 times)

Shondek


    Greetings fellow maffers,

    Hope you are all well and breathing through your noses SmileThis is indeed a fine forum.

    I am new to this and would just like to say I have started low heart rate training for the last 3 weeks now,and I must admit I am really enjoying it in spite of strange looks from people who have seen me running for years.

    I am however not sure what my Maf should be.I initially worked it out at 180-50+5 as I have been running 6 to 7 days a week for 30 years.My aim is to run a sub 3hr marathon at Edinburgh(UK) next may.

    I do suffer from an over active thyroid so I should take 5 off and my tendon under my ankle has been sore since april this year not sure if I banged it or twisted it anyway that's another 5 off,which bring my zone in at 110-120

     Below is a sort of fartlek i did this morning with a 15min warm up and warm down..a long way away from sub 3 marathon.

    I wonder if you could please help me with the following questions:

     

    1)What in your experience is the optimum time (hours per week) to train for a marathon?I have usually worked with 3 times your average daily distance is your collapse point.ie mid 60 miles a week but I usually do 80 odd ,which would probably take me 17+ hours a week. 

    A trifle extreme..!!

     

    2)Unsure and to shut up my pals who say I am not getting a training effect I've decided to fork out £120 and get a vo2max test done but specifically asking for a substrate-utilization analysis.Before I go I would like to ask you if there is anything I should ask the bloke to make sure he knows what he is doing because I most definitely do not want to come away with just a vo2 max number..

     

    3)I have read here that it can take up to 300-350 miles under maf before you see an improvement can anyone concur with this?

     

     

    4)I have also read that running over Maf can set you back.Does it actually put you back ie make you less fit or do you just not count it as under maf so one would have to add under maf to counteract the over maf..if you know what I mean!!?

    ie bumped into a group and did 3 miles over maf with them, better do 3 miles under maf now so nothing lost nothing gained.

     

     

    Many thanks for your time and keep on keepin' on

     

    Leo

    <colgroup span="12"></colgroup> <tfoot> </tfoot>

    Split

    Time

    Moving Time

    Distance

    Elevation Gain

    Elevation Loss

    Avg Pace

    Avg Moving Pace

    Best Pace

    Avg HR

    Max HR

    Calories

    Summary 1:00:02.5 57:56.0 4.51 207 207 13:17.9 12:49.8 3:39.3 121 145 511
    1 12:53.6 12:01.0 1.00 45 42 12:53.7 12:01.1 3:39.3 120 137 117
    2 13:41.7 12:58.0 1.00 75 55 13:41.8 12:58.1 3:57.4 124 145 117
    3 12:34.3 12:32.0 1.00 5 16 12:34.5 12:32.1 7:17.4 123 137 103
    4 12:59.9 12:37.0 1.00 53 68 13:00.0 12:37.1 4:41.1 122 138 120
    5 7:52.9 7:48.0 0.52 29 26 15:16.8 15:07.3 10:27.3 112 133 54
    jimmyb


      Greetings fellow maffers,

      Hope you are all well and breathing through your noses SmileThis is indeed a fine forum.

      I am new to this and would just like to say I have started low heart rate training for the last 3 weeks now,and I must admit I am really enjoying it in spite of strange looks from people who have seen me running for years.

      I am however not sure what my Maf should be.I initially worked it out at 180-50+5 as I have been running 6 to 7 days a week for 30 years.My aim is to run a sub 3hr marathon at Edinburgh(UK) next may.

      I do suffer from an over active thyroid so I should take 5 off and my tendon under my ankle has been sore since april this year not sure if I banged it or twisted it anyway that's another 5 off,which bring my zone in at 110-120

       Below is a sort of fartlek i did this morning with a 15min warm up and warm down..a long way away from sub 3 marathon.

      I wonder if you could please help me with the following questions:

       

      1)What in your experience is the optimum time (hours per week) to train for a marathon?I have usually worked with 3 times your average daily distance is your collapse point.ie mid 60 miles a week but I usually do 80 odd ,which would probably take me 17+ hours a week. 

      A trifle extreme..!!

       

      2)Unsure and to shut up my pals who say I am not getting a training effect I've decided to fork out £120 and get a vo2max test done but specifically asking for a substrate-utilization analysis.Before I go I would like to ask you if there is anything I should ask the bloke to make sure he knows what he is doing because I most definitely do not want to come away with just a vo2 max number..

       

      3)I have read here that it can take up to 300-350 miles under maf before you see an improvement can anyone concur with this?

       

       

      4)I have also read that running over Maf can set you back.Does it actually put you back ie make you less fit or do you just not count it as under maf so one would have to add under maf to counteract the over maf..if you know what I mean!!?

      ie bumped into a group and did 3 miles over maf with them, better do 3 miles under maf now so nothing lost nothing gained.

       

       

      Many thanks for your time and keep on keepin' on

       

      Leo

      Split

      Time

      Moving Time

      Distance

      Elevation Gain

      Elevation Loss

      Avg Pace

      Avg Moving Pace

      Best Pace

      Avg HR

      Max HR

      Calories

      1 12:53.6 12:01.0 1.00 45 42 12:53.7 12:01.1 3:39.3 120 137 117
      2 13:41.7 12:58.0 1.00 75 55 13:41.8 12:58.1 3:57.4 124 145 117
      3 12:34.3 12:32.0 1.00 5 16 12:34.5 12:32.1 7:17.4 123 137  
      4 12:59.9 12:37.0 1.00 53 68 13:00.0 12:37.1 4:41.1 122 138  
      5 7:52.9 7:48.0 0.52 29 26 15:16.8 15:07.3 10:27.3 112 133 54

       

      Hi Leo,

       

      Welcome to the outskirts. It's a method that isn't understood by most--not that they aren't able to do so, just that they take the usual brief look with a quick judgment that it can't work, without fully experimenting with it. MArk Allen got the same strange looks as well when he started training at 8:00+ per mile, while his buddies continued on working below 6:00. It took him a year to get back to the paces he use to train at, with a huge difference: he was at MAF. He was an elite and it took him a year. Might take an amateur longer.

       

      Remember that this training includes anaerobic workouts--when the the time is right. An aerobic base must first be built.

       

      Your questions:

       

      1) Personally, in the past, I was at my best when I can got above 60 miles per week in volume. I went as high as 100 mpw one season, with most of it under MAF -10. That produced my best marathon (Philadelphia 2006), but it took a lot of time (20 hours some weeks). Now, that doesn't mean that was either my optimum mileage or time. There's a possibility I might have run a better marathon, or done just as well on 75% of that load, or even 60%. I am open to that possibility. It was what it was. It was a worthy experiment, and I can say I ran 100 miles in a week once. In the past three years, I've met a lot of obstacles which have dealt an abnormal amount of life stress and time off from running (both at the same time), and I keep getting knocked back down. What I've learned is that my body can only handle certain amounts of training load at certain times, depending on stress levels and fitness. I've come up with a way to let my body do the deciding when it comes to training load. I bring this up because you will have to figure what is your optimum by following your MAF tests---or your aerobic speed curve (the graph of your speed at MAF).

       

      Your training load is everything you do physically + life stress + weather +changes in weight. 15 hours of running in the spring is quite different than running 15 hours in the summer. A runner might find that her or his aerobic speed is improving continuously through the spring with 15 hours per week, but then regresses continuously through the summer at the same load (not talking about the initial regression once it gets hot, but a continual regression from that point). Cutting training load might have helped the progression continue. Replace "spring vs. summer" with "time of normal vs. abnormal stress"---same deal. Or replace that with "15 hours of pure MAF running vs. 15 hours with 1-2 anaerobic workouts included" and the same deal.

       

      Just follow your MAF tests, whatever you are doing. You will find your optimum training load by doing this. If you get to 70 mpw or 20 hours, or whatever, and your aerobic speed just keeps getting better---great! When I did that 100 mile per week experiment, I had little life stress, lots of free time, and my aerobic speed kept improving. I wasn't as savvy as I am now, and if I look closer at what happened nearer to the race, most likely their was a plateau and slight regression. There was a point when enough was enough--and I probably ignored it.

       

      You can either test every 3 weeks, or just make sure there is some kind of run you do every week that is the same and includes time at MAF---the runs must be able to be compared. You can even just use your first mile at MAF (after warm-up). Whatever. Just keep track of your speed at MAF. It it is continuously tanking---you have to reduce your total load. That could mean less mileage, total duration, eliminating anaerobic work, or in some cases where it is life stress making the difference, getting rid of the abnormal stress if possible.

       

      So, follow your aerobic speed!

       

      2) Make sure your V02max test analyzes exhaled c02---also known as respiratory quotient or RQ. There should be a readout that looks like below. I have an arrow pointing to the RQ column.Notice the FAT/Kcal (%) column that tells how much fat you are burning at a given HR:

       

       

      Also, make sure that the tester allows you to warm-up before the test. Do a very low HR warm-up for 15-20 minutes, then do the test (recommended by Dr. Phil after he saw the results of my test, and knew that I hadn't warmed up properly. It effects the initial part of the test--I had no warm-up).

       

      You could also try this test (click) that I created.

      It's been fairly accurate so far.

       

      3. See answer to number 1.  I once thought that, but I've seen improvement on 20-30 miles per week after just a few weeks. It all depends where you are at in your body, stress, and fitness.

       

      4. MAF does not make you less fit. Again, it's a matter of training load. You have to get to the volume of duration that starts the improvement, and then keeps it improving.  That could be 2 hours for one person, and 4 for another, and 12 for another. Follow your MAF tests. Sometimes, after a lengthy aerobic base period, where you've seen improvement, you get to your first race, and your legs feel a bit sluggish running at HR's at your lactate threshold and above. But that is temporary as your anaerobic system comes into balance, then you should see some great endurance in your races. Sometimes it is best to do a brief anaerobic period before race season to balance out. WHether it be a race season or an anaerobic phase, you should see your aerobic speed improve even more. Remember to cut down total duration when you enter racing and anaerobic phases. If you see regression, that's usually the problem.

       

      I wish you the best with your training. The heart of MAF training is staying healthy. You will increase your chances of doing so if you keep making the necessary adjustments as you go.

       

      Good luck.

       

      --Jimmy Cool

      Log    PRs

      Shondek


        Hi Jimmy,

        Thanks very much for your very detailed and inspiring reply,it is indeed a pleasure to be here.The fact that these vo2 max tests are only as good as the person using the instruments has made me think twice about forking out £120 to be told something I may already know,if that is it turns out to be accurate.

        I must admit your test you created looks much more appealing and doable and I'll probably go down that route first.

        Looking forward to a winter of loads of miles @ sub Maf .Not looking forward to making excuses as to why I wont be running as often with my usual crew.

        There are some who would happily slow down with me but others who wouldnt dream of running at 11 min/mile pace.This is the toughest part as running can be such a social event.Maybe there should be a code that in winter(base time) we all train alone(secret training time) and in spring/summer we all get together and try and hammer(anaerobic) each other. 

        jimmyb


          Hi Jimmy,

          Thanks very much for your very detailed and inspiring reply,it is indeed a pleasure to be here.The fact that these vo2 max tests are only as good as the person using the instruments has made me think twice about forking out £120 to be told something I may already know,if that is it turns out to be accurate.

          I must admit your test you created looks much more appealing and doable and I'll probably go down that route first.

          Looking forward to a winter of loads of miles @ sub Maf .Not looking forward to making excuses as to why I wont be running as often with my usual crew.

          There are some who would happily slow down with me but others who wouldnt dream of running at 11 min/mile pace.This is the toughest part as running can be such a social event.Maybe there should be a code that in winter(base time) we all train alone(secret training time) and in spring/summer we all get together and try and hammer(anaerobic) each other. 

           

          You're welcome.

           

          It was interesting to do the RQ test, and I'm glad I did it once, but it really wasn't necessary. Neither is knowing your V02max ("hey baby, want to see my big V02max? Doesn't look like much now, but you should see it when I run"). The beauty of HR training is that you can see your progress quite clearly, and the body makes the decisions about training paces for you---you don't force the body to match and adapt to some predetermined pace. You just get faster at the same HR (whether it be your MAF, LT, or 95% MHR).

           

          If you try the test I created, send me the results and I'll post them in that thread. The more the merrier.

           

          My winter code seems to be: " in the winter, muffins, eaten in secret. In the spring, blame my bouncing, chaffed man boobs on the winter muffins."

           

          CoolJimmy

          Log    PRs

          Shondek


            You're welcome.

             

            It was interesting to do the RQ test, and I'm glad I did it once, but it really wasn't necessary. Neither is knowing your V02max ("hey baby, want to see my big V02max? Doesn't look like much now, but you should see it when I run"). The beauty of HR training is that you can see your progress quite clearly, and the body makes the decisions about training paces for you---you don't force the body to match and adapt to some predetermined pace. You just get faster at the same HR (whether it be your MAF, LT, or 95% MHR).

             

            If you try the test I created, send me the results and I'll post them in that thread. The more the merrier.

             

            My winter code seems to be: " in the winter, muffins, eaten in secret. In the spring, blame my bouncing, chaffed man boobs on the winter muffins."

             

            CoolJimmy

             I hear you:'bouncing chaffed man boobs!!?'Easy tiger!

             

            I decided to slash my Maf number 135 to 120 this morning and I'm pretty sure I have now found my zone .
            Compared to my runs in the past few weeks i felt more in control this time.I found keeping my pulse at 116(ave hr) a breeze compared to 130 where it would occasionally fly away to 140+ on the gentlest of climbs whereas this morning on the same climbs heart rose to 120.

            My observations:

             

            1)After 90 minutes of running there was not a trace of sweat on my gear(my wife frequently refers to me as Sweaty Betty) 

             

            2)Breathed through my nose the whole way ,ie with mouth closed(makes a change)

             

            3)Ran the whole way!!!!...A first

             

            4)Didn't fall asleep in the bath...that was weird!(My dried out Slow Burn remained dry)

             

            This has surely has to be it.Let the fun and games begin!!!

             

            I will try your test next week Jimmy and send you the details.

             

            One question tho why call it low heart rate training? A 20 year olds maf could be 165

             

            Is this an old codgers domain?

            jimmyb



               

              One question tho why call it low heart rate training? A 20 year olds maf could be 165

               

              Is this an old codgers domain?

               

              I don't call it LHR training. That's a term started by someone along the way, as a catch-all for the Maffetone, Hadd, and Van Aaken methods, which all use relatively low HR's for base training. I follow the Mafetone Method, others here do HADD and Van Aaken.

               

              Welcome to Cape Codgers.

               

              --JImmy

              Log    PRs