Low HR Training

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Maffetone, HADD or Lydiard? (Read 1118 times)

Shondek


    Hi Gooner,

    Yes AW my mistake..a legend !

    Those are really great splits which  we are all aspiring to.I've shied away from maf tests and all that,preferring to test myself at maf-25.

    Its looks as if you are very fit and healthy as your maf calculations shows you haven't had a cold for 2 years..Do you get out much.!?Smile

    My opinion the  maf figure tells you where your 50/50 fat/sugar burning point is.It doesn't tell you how your body deals with the small amount of lactic acid  in your muscles.If you burn sugar there is lactic acid.

    If you can do a slight negative split on a flat out and back route then I would say that is the correct heart rate to train at ..and under,keep it varied.

    In the book HIT they show a pyramid diagram with the anaerobic threshold 2/3 the way up,and advice to do all base work below that level.I have decided to make maf that point.So that would mean Lydiards 100% effort would be maf and 1/4 effort 1/4maf (maf-10 maybe) and 3/4 effort 3/4maf(maf-5) only you can decide by doing a maf test..

     

    eg.2 hr run at 3/4 maf might regress you where 1/4 maf as lydiard recommends for 2 hr+ runs might bring you on.2.5 hr is the max you should run.

    I had good results over the years training the lydiard way when I was young where you fall into maf and below without thinking about it.As I got older I have pushed my maf way down to a point close to walking.You are in a good place so keep it that way.

     

    Test yourself at low maf where there is more fat than sugar burning and you will keep your health.

     

    Its a piece of cake, you're on to a sub 3 without any difficulty

      I used to post here a long, long, long time ago. Under a different screen name..

       

      And my advice to you is this:

       

      1. Do HADD instead. The variations in HR rates (though while still in the aerobic zone) will be more beneficial than running at the same HR every day/run.You are not a beginner runner, starting out from scratch.

      2. You've run a 3:06 marathon. You are not a beginner. Variance will help.

      3. You need to know in general your maxHR. In a ballpark. Err on the lower side. The formulas really don't work.

      4. Do a HADD base period for anywhere from 4-8-12 weeks. You will do some faster running, but this running should be at a HR below your MP HR. For instance, if your maxHR is ~183. Most of your runs will be in the HR135-150 range. The faster ILTHR runs will feel "fast", but  you should be able to recover instantly from these runs.

      5. You need to straighten out your HR strap problems. I don't have any problem with wild readings on my 305. I wet the strap before running, make sure it is snug and actually use some liquid hand soap on the strap.

      6. You should not go over the maxHR limit for that day's run. So if you are running a HR135 HADD run. If you see 136, slow down until you see 135 or lower. I usually have a maxHR of 2-3 beats over the maxHR for that days run.

      7. After HADD base period, look up Pfitz Advanced Marathoning, 2nd edition. 12-week marathon training schedules at whatever weekly distance you want.

      8. Don't be afraid to take off the HRM, especially during specific marathon training when paces matter more than HR's. HR training is great for training....

       

      I speak from experience. My first marathon was 3:06. I was a big HR runner. I became a way better runner when I started to do:

       

      1. HADD base training

      2. Pfitz specific marathon training

      3. Put the HR monitor away during specific marathon training.

       

      When I started HADD/Pfitz I went from a 3:20+ marathoner down to a 2:48 marathoner in about 3 years.

        Gooner, you got a couple good replies and one thats, well, unconventional to say the least with what I feel is some misinformation. My advice is to pick one and stick with it. Do not do some form of a hybrid. After you have experience with HR training, go ahead and tweak things to fit for you.

         

        I've never done HADD training, but may give it a go as I've always followed Maffetone. I agree that with a 3:06 marathon, you're not a beginner. I've had some pretty good success with MAFing but feel it may be time for a different training scheme.

         

        The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

         

        2014 Goals:

         

        Stay healthy

        Enjoy life

         

        jimmyb


          I used to post here a long, long, long time ago. Under a different screen name..

           

          And my advice to you is this:

           

          1. Do HADD instead. The variations in HR rates (though while still in the aerobic zone) will be more beneficial than running at the same HR every day/run.You are not a beginner runner, starting out from scratch.

          2. You've run a 3:06 marathon. You are not a beginner. Variance will help.

          3. You need to know in general your maxHR. In a ballpark. Err on the lower side. The formulas really don't work.

          4. Do a HADD base period for anywhere from 4-8-12 weeks. You will do some faster running, but this running should be at a HR below your MP HR. For instance, if your maxHR is ~183. Most of your runs will be in the HR135-150 range. The faster ILTHR runs will feel "fast", but  you should be able to recover instantly from these runs.

          5. You need to straighten out your HR strap problems. I don't have any problem with wild readings on my 305. I wet the strap before running, make sure it is snug and actually use some liquid hand soap on the strap.

          6. You should not go over the maxHR limit for that day's run. So if you are running a HR135 HADD run. If you see 136, slow down until you see 135 or lower. I usually have a maxHR of 2-3 beats over the maxHR for that days run.

          7. After HADD base period, look up Pfitz Advanced Marathoning, 2nd edition. 12-week marathon training schedules at whatever weekly distance you want.

          8. Don't be afraid to take off the HRM, especially during specific marathon training when paces matter more than HR's. HR training is great for training....

           

          I speak from experience. My first marathon was 3:06. I was a big HR runner. I became a way better runner when I started to do:

           

          1. HADD base training

          2. Pfitz specific marathon training

          3. Put the HR monitor away during specific marathon training.

           

          When I started HADD/Pfitz I went from a 3:20+ marathoner down to a 2:48 marathoner in about 3 years.

           

          How well your body handles any program is always an individual matter. Depends where you're at. If you are in great health, not hugging the line of OT, and your life stress meter is at normal (for you), and have made a lot of aerobic progress, then Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning or HADD might just be the thing that brings out your potential. Longevity and health are not the focus of these programs, though. Not to say either one won't produce results in the short term, it's just that the heart of them is not your health, or  to keep you running for the next twenty years without a career-ending injury.  One way to make them both a little more health oriented so is to bring the MAF test with you and keep tabs on your aerobic speed while experimenting with them. If at anytime you start to see regression, take stock, and make any necessary adjustments. I believe the MAF test is THE major contribution to the running world by Dr. Phil. And I believe it can part of any program. The test never lies about the condition of your aerobic system. I have experimented with each program and found some progress in training and races, but eventually I became worn out. It was only when I introduced MAF training for base periods that I showed up for marathons in one piece and saw my best results at all distances. Lately, I returned to Hadd for an anaerobic period, and my body was not ready for it. I had to back off. So, yes, I urge anyone to experiment with any program---you won't know until you try. It's not a journey unless you try things and take risks. Can't go wrong if you put the MAF test in your backpack, and use it as a guide as to when to back off or to surge ahead.

           

          Screen Name 1, you're always welcome to start a HADD thread here and make posts about it. The forum was created by Steve to include HADD and Van Aaken training.

           

          --JimmyCool

           

          p.s. If you look at MArk Allen's training, you'll see that as soon as he left the MAF base period (patience phase), his combined aerobic, anaerobic training  makes Pfitzinger training look like a beginner's program. He attributes being able to handle it to the base period, period of rest every year, and his regular MAF test. 

          Log    PRs

            Performing a regular MAF test, or HADD test is fine. I agree. However, even I myself was guilty of falling into the trap of running every run at MAF. And I did it for long periods of time, and I plateau'd and got nowhere.

             

            Now for someone who is running minimal mileage (< 40mpw), and is more or less a novice runner (no previous running experience). I am a  big proponent of running slower than normal. Heck I run 95% of my training runs slower than most people of my ability or slower. However, what I've come to learn over the past 3+ years is...

             

            1. You will improve as  you build up training cycle after cycle.

            2. You need to take a short break after each cycle. And by break, I mean 1-2 weeks of gluttony and excess with little to no running.

            3. You can still use a HR monitor with Pfitz. I have for multiple cycles.

            4. Yes, programs like Pfitz aren't for the "young at heart" they are tough.

            5. If I had to chose one single way to improve marathoning times, or distance times it's simply to run more miles. With most of those miles (if not all) at slow paces.

            6. Sometimes, worrying about your HR can get over-obsessive. Sometimes it's fun not to strap on the HRM and just run.

             

            I would start a thread for HADD, but I'm in a "no-discuss" zone about my current training cycle. Kind of want to show up at the starting line of my next race and run (hopefully fast).

             

            My main point to the original poster, is that if he is planning on doing a BASE training period before his next training cycle he might benefit more from a HADD regiment than a strict MAF regiment due to the varying heart-rates.

             

            Usually, what I do when starting a cycle with base distance is start-off with 1 week at the lowest HADD HR level (which is usually lower than MAF HR). Then start up with a lower mileage week the next, and gradually increase distance.

             

            My age is 40. My MAF would be 140 (or even 145 since I run about 3500 miles a year). However, my max is around 183. I used to use HR levels of 140-155 (ILTHR) for all of my HADD training, but even found that some of the higher HR runs (155's) were a little to tough/fast. So now I've dropped down to 135-150 (ILTHR). I plan on doing this for a couple of months, then I will transition into other training to ramp up the training.

             

            I always find that whenever doing HR training however, that it's always safer and wise to chose the lower HR max levels for any run...

            gooner2004


              Thanks for all the replies there is some great advice that I will take on board. I finished my marathon 3 weeks ago and actually did use the P & D advance marathon up to 55 miles schedule. I will certainly use the book again but probably move up to the 55 to 70 miles or 70 to 85 mile schedule for my next marathon in the Autumn which is in Amsterdam where I would like to break the 3hr mark.

               

              My plan from now to the start of the 18 week schedule is to base train. I've never done this before as i've always been a recreational runner for the last 15 years normally running 3 days a week and never entering any races. I've got a friend who has just got into running so this has given me the buzz to race when he does. So after lots of research on running by HR and that it makes you running faster I thought I would give it a go. I've been using MAF for the last 3 weeks but the more people post about Lydiard and HADD the more I am intrigued to which method is the best. I suppose I'm more results driven and really want to break the 3hr time. 

              Shondek


                Whichever method you choose Gooner just make sure you use maf to monitor your progress or regression

                lesterbsb


                  Hi mates,

                  I started reading stuff on low HR training, Maffetone´s method, etc. I´m not a beginner runner, but last year I got stuck after gifted on an ITB injure. I´m running minimalists, 5 fingers, since january 2013.

                   

                  But there´s one thing is vague enough, that´s almost making me get rid of this low hr training: the lack of coaches or some source to help me schedule a training program. Yes...its written everywhere that it´s particular to my goals...so Every trainning plan is !!! And my goal is 42k under 3h15.

                  What I do need and cannot find answers after a couple of weeks on  search is :

                   

                  - How long should I run daily at this begining (12 weeks of basebuild)

                  - How much should I increase running time weekly?

                  - What trainning variations should I be submitted (short runs, long runs, speed runs....)

                  - After those 12 weeks, how should I train?

                   

                  This method appears to be so cool, but it´s impressive neither Phil Maffetone has more than 1 coach he knows who follows his method ! Why????? It´s damn hard to find someone to prepare you with this low hr approach, and I´d be extremely thankful to find someone to guide me through this process (or send me a coach´s name)

                   

                  many thanks to all of you, keep running !

                   

                  Lester

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