Low HR Training

123

Another eager LHR candidate (Read 106 times)

Zarch


    Thanks you two, appreciate you taking the time to comment.

     

    I know this is the LHR forum, but you guys seem to know about the whole HR spectrum.  Any chance you'd take a look at this document that i've put together that details "what i don't understand about heart rate racing and training"?

     

    Catchy title eh? Smile

     

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Lz5y5sqq-6HGzin3cJgmHLCkc035yIcmFUmP4maxPlE/edit

     

    Any comments at all would be very welcome as i'm struggling to understand it all.

     

    Many thanks

     

    Mick

    BeeRunB


      It might be "low" HR, but that's only base phase!

       

      It's simple. You got a maxHR at the end of a race going all out, and if it was 181, then you're probably close enough. Since you were running your hardest and busting a lung, then it's correct enough. As far as those zones go, they seem good. I agree with the the anaerobic zone, and it lines up with Maffetone's suggestion for speedwork. Tempos runs and cruise intervals that span that zone are effective, and really all you need to sharpen for races. The 70-80% zone is good to work in after an MAF base phase. It wakes up those type 2 fibers that can become more like a type 1.

       

      Just monitor your aerobic speed (MAF), listen to your body,  and you'll be good to go through all phases and zones.

       

      --Jimmy

         

        https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Lz5y5sqq-6HGzin3cJgmHLCkc035yIcmFUmP4maxPlE/edit

         

        Any comments at all would be very welcome as i'm struggling to understand it all.

         

         

        MaxHR. I guess the formulas happen to estimate your maxHR pretty well, then. Cool. It's not the case for me Smile

         

        As for training in zone 5. I don't believe your HR should be up there for long if you do only short intervals. I did find it interesting how in the 1000m's you didn't even reach the zone 5, how fatigued did you go into that training session? More fatigued than usual? Or was the weather unusually cold? It can explain why the HR wouldn't go up as much as it did in the hills session.

         

        Overall, you don't have to focus on forcing the HR up when doing intervals. The HR just reacts too slow to intensity to be usable in that way. You need to listen to the feeling of how hard you're going, you should try and get in tune with the paces etc. HR can be useful to check at the end of intervals to see if it went too high by end of the intervals, as long as you already know what you can handle HR-wise to be able to finish the session without slowing.  But the HR is a bit dependent on external circumstances too so you should rely more on your own feelings of effort. Just be honest with yourself when evaluating. That's where the HRM has the advantage, you *have* to be honest, no other choice lol

         

        Why isn’t my heart rate much higher in 5k and 10k if I can keep going for Half Marathon pace at the same heart rate? Well that's an idiosyncrasy. I'm the same way. I've averaged 190-192 in HM's and averaged 191-193 in 10k's and 193 for 5k. For some people there will be more of a difference. Note it's also weather dependent, in hot weather I once averaged 199 for a 7k. No way I could do that in cold weather.

         

        Otoh, you were also asking if you could train to be able to push harder in shorter races, yes it's possible to alter how the HR behaves and also increase your tolerance to anaerobic paces. Just look up plans for short races, it'll probably have lots of intervals and shit. I tried that before and I found it did affect me both in terms of tolerance of anaerobic paces and a little bit in terms of tolerating higher HR's. I was able to push HR higher with less suffering and with more springy legs, basically.

          It might be "low" HR, but that's only base phase!

           

          It's simple. You got a maxHR at the end of a race going all out, and if it was 181, then you're probably close enough. Since you were running your hardest and busting a lung, then it's correct enough. As far as those zones go, they seem good. I agree with the the anaerobic zone, and it lines up with Maffetone's suggestion for speedwork. Tempos runs and cruise intervals that span that zone are effective, and really all you need to sharpen for races. The 70-80% zone is good to work in after an MAF base phase. It wakes up those type 2 fibers that can become more like a type 1.

           

          Just monitor your aerobic speed (MAF), listen to your body,  and you'll be good to go through all phases and zones.

           

          --Jimmy

           

          I want to add two things;

           

          I tried 70-80% for base building phase and I had good results. Better results if I didn't go too close to 80%, though, or if I did go all the way up to 80% then I did need an easier day afterwards. 75% was more the sweet spot for a kind of base building. I had paces improve and I kept improving when going into race season with faster workouts. (I'm of course talking about the HRR %, not simple MHR-based percentages.)

           

          Note though that in race season I would let go of the 70-80% zone with the exception of fast finish long runs. I simply have nowhere to fit that intensity/HR range, it's too hard for easy recovery runs and too easy for  tempo runs. It fits into 2nd half of LR's though just fine and it seemed to help with maintaining training response and thus get closer to the optimum of overall training load.

           

          The other thing, monitoring low HR isn't enough IMO if you want to assess readiness for races. I think I said this before but it's possible to have regressed for higher HR's while low HR still holds the usual pace without deterioration. Luckily all those cases were temporary for me, I got back to normal at the higher HR zones too. My guess is some fibers were temporarily exhausted, ones that don't normally activate at low HR so the LHR pace will stay normal.

          Zarch


            A long time since my last post, but just wanted to catch up having reached another milestone after 2.5 years of running: sub 40 10k.

             

            I spent lots of the late spring/summer trying to get along with easy running and found it wasn't doing me that much good, I seemed to go backwards to be honest as the summer progressed into autumn/fall.

             

            Decided to try a new regime and for the last few months have been ramping things up with some harder tempo sessions once a week and studying the work of Jack Daniels and his tables/formulas/suggested training paces.

             

            But still only running 2 or 3 times a week and averaging about 20 miles/week.

             

            Ran 40:54 at a hilly 10k 2 weeks ago (previous best 41:10 in May), then followed it up with 39:57 on Sunday on a more undulating course.

             

            http://www.strava.com/activities/227018070

             

            Maybe I just react better to hard tempo sessions?  Maybe that is where my gap in fitness was/is rather than aerobic MAF?

             

            My Strava profile: http://www.strava.com/athletes/2872928

             

            Funny old business this running fast?  \o/

              Zarch,

               

              Congrats on hitting sub 40 10k. Must feel good to cross that time barrier. I'm hoping to do a sub 20 minute 5k in the future.

               

              Have you taken any MAF tests to measure up to your previous ones?

                Glad to see a group member commenting over a year period which should give us good reference.

                 

                I am of the opinion that incorporating LHR training with other type of training might be the way to go, for example:

                 

                LHR specific period of 2-3 months, treat it as base building.

                Then start mixing in tempo and intervals for sharpening leading up to your goal race.

                 

                After your goal race and recovery period, you can start LHR again to upgrade your aerobic engine from bottom up again.

                 

                A long time since my last post, but just wanted to catch up having reached another milestone after 2.5 years of running: sub 40 10k.

                 

                I spent lots of the late spring/summer trying to get along with easy running and found it wasn't doing me that much good, I seemed to go backwards to be honest as the summer progressed into autumn/fall.

                 

                Decided to try a new regime and for the last few months have been ramping things up with some harder tempo sessions once a week and studying the work of Jack Daniels and his tables/formulas/suggested training paces.

                 

                But still only running 2 or 3 times a week and averaging about 20 miles/week.

                 

                Ran 40:54 at a hilly 10k 2 weeks ago (previous best 41:10 in May), then followed it up with 39:57 on Sunday on a more undulating course.

                 

                http://www.strava.com/activities/227018070

                 

                Maybe I just react better to hard tempo sessions?  Maybe that is where my gap in fitness was/is rather than aerobic MAF?

                 

                My Strava profile: http://www.strava.com/athletes/2872928

                 

                Funny old business this running fast?  \o/

                runnerclay


                Consistently Slow

                   

                   

                  I am of the opinion that incorporating LHR training with other type of training might be the way to go, for example:

                   

                  LHR specific period of 2-3 months, treat it as base building.

                  Then start mixing in tempo and intervals for sharpening leading up to your goal race.

                   

                  After your goal race and recovery period, you can start LHR again to upgrade your aerobic engine from bottom up again.

                   

                   

                  +1.

                  WHAT WAS YOUR WEEKLY MILEAGE FOR THE 10K PR? Your mileage appears low.

                  Run until the trail runs out.

                   SCHEDULE 2016--

                   The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                  unsolicited chatter

                  http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                     

                    +1.

                    WHAT WAS YOUR WEEKLY MILEAGE FOR THE 10K PR? Your mileage appears low.

                    These were the weekly mileage I ran in 2010 leading up to my 10k and half marathon PRs

                     

                    Date ▼ActivityCourseTypeDistanceDurationPacePRs
                    12/27/2010       36 mi 4:56:14 11:32  
                    12/20/2010       42.3 mi 7:54:47 11:14  
                    12/13/2010       21.2 mi 4:13:11 11:58  
                    12/6/2010       29.2 mi 4:46:22 9:48 half marathon PR
                    11/29/2010       31.7 mi 5:24:21 10:15  
                    11/22/2010       30.6 mi 5:15:06 10:19  
                    11/15/2010       37.9 mi 7:04:00 11:11  
                    11/8/2010       23.2 mi 4:08:21 10:44  
                    11/1/2010       21 mi 3:50:46 11:00  
                    10/25/2010       15.7 mi 3:02:31 11:39  
                    10/18/2010       13.8 mi 2:41:12 11:43  
                    10/11/2010       31.3 mi 5:38:44 10:50 10k PR
                    10/4/2010       27.8 mi 5:10:36 11:10  
                    9/27/2010       33.1 mi 6:19:59 11:29  
                    9/20/2010       23.5 mi 4:30:46 11:31  
                    9/13/2010       32.5 mi 6:14:28 11:32  
                    9/6/2010       25.1 mi 5:03:31 12:06  
                    8/30/2010       27.3 mi 5:14:35 11:31  
                    8/23/2010       26.4 mi 5:06:58 11:39  
                    8/16/2010       23.5 mi 5:01:23 12:49  
                    8/9/2010       18.2 mi 3:54:01 12:52  
                    8/2/2010       8 mi 1:52:50 14:07  

                     

                    Plan to increase weekly mileage gradually this time.  Right now about 20 miles per week.  Hope to get to 30 miles per week in April 2015.

                    Zarch


                       

                      +1.

                      WHAT WAS YOUR WEEKLY MILEAGE FOR THE 10K PR? Your mileage appears low.

                       

                      Yes, I think I'm lucky in that respect that I can get half decent results from around 2 or 3 sessions and 20 miles per week.

                       

                      Here's my full mileage last year with races/times shown.  List goes back to this exact week last year where I ran the same 10k race in 41:54.

                       

                      I have ran the same two 10k races 3 times since I started running.

                       

                      Percy Pud 10k (December)

                      2014: 39:57

                      2013: 41:54

                      2012: 44:04

                       

                      Sheffield 10k (September)

                      2014: 41:37

                      2013: 43:50

                      2012: 48:47 (had been running just a couple of months)

                       

                       

                      From April through to October I barely ran a tempo session.  I think they served me well in the lead up to the half marathon PBn in April, but spent the proceeding summer months flirting with LHR runs and also lots of races.  Many shown here, others like Fell, Trail and XC not shown as terrain makes times irrelevant.

                       

                      Training had no real purpose, I was just messing about really.

                       

                      It was only start of October that I got serious with tempo again and I think that is what has got me firing again.

                       

                       

                      01/12/2014 17.8 10k PB, 39:57 (6:26 min/mile)
                      24/11/2014 19.8  
                      17/11/2014 26.5 10k PB, 40:54 (6:36 min/mile)
                      10/11/2014 12.3  
                      03/11/2014 27.8  
                      27/10/2014 18.8  
                      20/10/2014 22.4  
                      13/10/2014 13.9 5k, 19:54 (6:27 min/mile)
                      06/10/2014 6.5  
                      29/09/2014 8.4  
                      22/09/2014 21.2 10k, 41:37 (6:33 min/mile)
                      15/09/2014 18.6  
                      08/09/2014 20.8  
                      01/09/2014 23.4  
                      26/08/2014 23.1  
                      18/08/2014 23  
                      11/08/2014 15.7  
                      04/08/2014 19.1 10 mile race, 1:10:02 (6:59 min/mile)
                      29/07/2014 0  
                      22/07/2014 7.1  
                      14/07/2014 9.1  
                      07/07/2014 21.2  
                      30/06/2014 0  
                      23/06/2014 9.8 5k PB, 19:40 (6:23 min/mile)
                      16/06/2014 6.7  
                      09/06/2014 20.3  
                      02/06/2014 20  
                      26/05/2014 20.3 10k PB, 41:10 (6:37 min/mile)
                      19/05/2014 24.3  
                      12/05/2014 15.2  
                      05/05/2014 20.8  
                      29/04/2014 18.8 5 Mile PB, 32:17 (6:28 min/mile)
                      21/04/2014 14.8  5 Mile race, 34:16 (6:44 min/mile)
                      14/04/2014 17.8  
                      07/04/2014 16.1  5 Mile race, 33:14 (6:40 min/mile)
                      31/03/2014 20.4 HM PB, 1:32:57 (6:59 min/mile)
                      24/03/2014 16.1 5k PB, 20:26 (6:36 min/mile)
                      17/03/2014 21.3  
                      10/03/2014 22.2  
                      03/03/2014 29.1  
                      24/02/2014 21 9 Mile race, 1:03:57 (7:06 min/mile)
                      17/02/2014 27.5  
                      10/02/2014 21.8  
                      03/02/2014 25.8  
                      27/01/2014 19.1  
                      20/01/2014 19.3  
                      13/01/2014 11.5  
                      06/01/2014 22.8 5k, 21:02 (6:50 min/mile)
                      30/12/2013 10.1  
                      23/12/2013 8  
                      16/12/2013 4.2  
                      09/12/2013 6.5  
                      02/12/2013 20.7  
                      25/11/2013 21.8  
                      18/11/2013 14.8 10k PB, 41:54 (6:45 min/mile)

                        Zarch,

                         

                        That was impressive improvement you have there.  I guess your years of soccer playing provided you a very good starting point.

                         

                        If you also play soccer games while doing running, those games could be counted as intervals to some extent too.

                         

                         

                        Yes, I think I'm lucky in that respect that I can get half decent results from around 2 or 3 sessions and 20 miles per week.

                         

                        Here's my full mileage last year with races/times shown.  List goes back to this exact week last year where I ran the same 10k race in 41:54.

                         

                        I have ran the same two 10k races 3 times since I started running.

                         

                        Percy Pud 10k (December)

                        2014: 39:57

                        2013: 41:54

                        2012: 44:04

                         

                        Sheffield 10k (September)

                        2014: 41:37

                        2013: 43:50

                        2012: 48:47 (had been running just a couple of months)

                         

                         

                        From April through to October I barely ran a tempo session.  I think they served me well in the lead up to the half marathon PBn in April, but spent the proceeding summer months flirting with LHR runs and also lots of races.  Many shown here, others like Fell, Trail and XC not shown as terrain makes times irrelevant.

                         

                        Training had no real purpose, I was just messing about really.

                         

                        It was only start of October that I got serious with tempo again and I think that is what has got me firing again.

                         

                         

                        01/12/2014 17.8 10k PB, 39:57 (6:26 min/mile)
                        24/11/2014 19.8  
                        17/11/2014 26.5 10k PB, 40:54 (6:36 min/mile)
                        10/11/2014 12.3  
                        03/11/2014 27.8  
                        27/10/2014 18.8  
                        20/10/2014 22.4  
                        13/10/2014 13.9 5k, 19:54 (6:27 min/mile)
                        06/10/2014 6.5  
                        29/09/2014 8.4  
                        22/09/2014 21.2 10k, 41:37 (6:33 min/mile)
                        15/09/2014 18.6  
                        08/09/2014 20.8  
                        01/09/2014 23.4  
                        26/08/2014 23.1  
                        18/08/2014 23  
                        11/08/2014 15.7  
                        04/08/2014 19.1 10 mile race, 1:10:02 (6:59 min/mile)
                        29/07/2014 0  
                        22/07/2014 7.1  
                        14/07/2014 9.1  
                        07/07/2014 21.2  
                        30/06/2014 0  
                        23/06/2014 9.8 5k PB, 19:40 (6:23 min/mile)
                        16/06/2014 6.7  
                        09/06/2014 20.3  
                        02/06/2014 20  
                        26/05/2014 20.3 10k PB, 41:10 (6:37 min/mile)
                        19/05/2014 24.3  
                        12/05/2014 15.2  
                        05/05/2014 20.8  
                        29/04/2014 18.8 5 Mile PB, 32:17 (6:28 min/mile)
                        21/04/2014 14.8  5 Mile race, 34:16 (6:44 min/mile)
                        14/04/2014 17.8  
                        07/04/2014 16.1  5 Mile race, 33:14 (6:40 min/mile)
                        31/03/2014 20.4 HM PB, 1:32:57 (6:59 min/mile)
                        24/03/2014 16.1 5k PB, 20:26 (6:36 min/mile)
                        17/03/2014 21.3  
                        10/03/2014 22.2  
                        03/03/2014 29.1  
                        24/02/2014 21 9 Mile race, 1:03:57 (7:06 min/mile)
                        17/02/2014 27.5  
                        10/02/2014 21.8  
                        03/02/2014 25.8  
                        27/01/2014 19.1  
                        20/01/2014 19.3  
                        13/01/2014 11.5  
                        06/01/2014 22.8 5k, 21:02 (6:50 min/mile)
                        30/12/2013 10.1  
                        23/12/2013 8  
                        16/12/2013 4.2  
                        09/12/2013 6.5  
                        02/12/2013 20.7  
                        25/11/2013 21.8  
                        18/11/2013 14.8 10k PB, 41:54 (6:45 min/mile)
                        Zarch


                          Hello all,

                           

                          It's been a year since I posted on my own thread, but i'm back with MAF in mind......AGAIN!

                           

                          I suppose i've had a good 2015 in running.

                           

                          2015 is only my 3rd full year running..... i'll be 44 in January.  Remember: background in playing soccer, so i'm not a couch to 5k type, but hadn't  'ran' since school.  Probably had some lingering fitness from all that football (i'm UK ok?) Smile

                           

                          Miles to date in 2015: 896 (so averaging 19.9 per week, usually 2 or 3 run days per week)

                           

                          Full training record here:

                          https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dpm9mKOqUAnJQ91RbFv-en4xySvShq8GeqAdBGGdWCU/edit#gid=0

                           

                          Hoping to get to 1,000 miles by New Years Eve..... I recorded 925 in 2014 and just over 400 in 2013.

                           

                          Spent April onwards this year racing and then track and tempo sessions through july/aug/sept....... not that much easy running.

                           

                          2014 PB's

                          5k - 19:40 (June)

                          5 Mile - 32:17 (April)

                          10k - 39:57 (December)

                          9 Mile - 1:03:57 (Feb)

                          HM: 1:32:57 (April)

                           

                          2015 PB's

                          5k: still 19:40 (don't run it enough or train for it)

                          5 Mile: 31:56 (April) - 19 secs better

                          10k - 39:24 (May) - 33 secs better

                          9 Mile - 1:01:46 (Feb, same race as previous year) - 2 mins 11 secs better

                          HM - 1:29:15 (April) - 3 mins 42 secs better

                           

                          During that April and May period I was flying.  That 10k PB seemed like nothing was wrong in the world.  I've run a few 10k since I cannot reproduce the feeling.

                           

                          Looking back at my training record I spent most of Feb and Mar just running easy MAF style.  Did that help with the great April and May I had?  Maybe?  So that's why i'm back.

                           

                          I've spent the last 7 weeks running easy, i've got a 10k in a fortnight then I plan to spend the 12 weeks after that giving MAF another go.  trying to build a winter base on 20 miles per week. Smile

                           

                          Been reading much over the past year and really enjoyed Matt Fitzgerald's 80/20 book, so I starting marking all my workouts with 80/20 based on my heart rate zones.  So you can see my last 7 weeks have been

                           

                          <colgroup><col width="32" /><col width="32" /></colgroup>
                          98 2
                          0 0
                          100 0
                          72 28
                          84 16
                          95 5
                          91 9

                           

                          the 0/0 was a week with flu/cold. Smile

                           

                          No matter who you read, be it Daniels, Hadd, Maffetone, Fitzgerald, Coe etc they all talk about base training before adding faster stuff.

                           

                          After all this reading I even went as far as turning my training notes into a web article for our running club: http://www.steelcitystriders.co.uk/building-a-training-plan/

                           

                          Ah well, back to MAF........

                           

                          44 (I will be in January), so 180 - 44 = 136.

                           

                          Based on my thread and story of the last few years..... do you think I need to add/subtract any extras at this stage?

                           

                          Thanks again for listening.

                           

                          Cheers, Mick

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