Low HR Training

Using MAF tests as Race Pace Indicator or Predictor (Read 3111 times)

dwillens


    So I've been lurking here for several months but wanted to post my recent results.  I have been running for many years but just recently began training again in February after a five year layoff.  I did the usual "run as fast as possible on every run" until I came across Maffetone and decided to try it out.  Unsurprisingly, it was painfully slow and I was obviously not in good aerobic condition with an initial MAF test time of 11:45.  Over the past couple of months I have gotten my MAF test down to about 11:00.  This morning I ran my first race since I started training again this year and my time was 23:42 for three miles, right on where the chart says I should be based upon my 11:00 MAF test.  This was a PR for me for that distance going back to the past 10 years that I have been keeping records, and more importantly, I felt like I was cruising vs the old way of going out as fast as possible and just trying to hold on.

     

    So I would say 1) Maffetone is definitely working for me; and 2) the MAF Test chart on this thread is consistent with my results.

     

    Now on to LA Marathon in March!

     

    Damon 

    jimmyb


      So I've been lurking here for several months but wanted to post my recent results.  I have been running for many years but just recently began training again in February after a five year layoff.  I did the usual "run as fast as possible on every run" until I came across Maffetone and decided to try it out.  Unsurprisingly, it was painfully slow and I was obviously not in good aerobic condition with an initial MAF test time of 11:45.  Over the past couple of months I have gotten my MAF test down to about 11:00.  This morning I ran my first race since I started training again this year and my time was 23:42 for three miles, right on where the chart says I should be based upon my 11:00 MAF test.  This was a PR for me for that distance going back to the past 10 years that I have been keeping records, and more importantly, I felt like I was cruising vs the old way of going out as fast as possible and just trying to hold on.

       

      So I would say 1) Maffetone is definitely working for me; and 2) the MAF Test chart on this thread is consistent with my results.

       

      Now on to LA Marathon in March!

       

      Damon 

       

      Awesome, Damon. Nice PR!

      When you develop that aerobic speed to the utmost, you feel like a real engine that can go forever.

      WTG.

      JimmyCool

      Log    PRs


      Bad Ass

        So I've been lurking here for several months but wanted to post my recent results.  I have been running for many years but just recently began training again in February after a five year layoff.  I did the usual "run as fast as possible on every run" until I came across Maffetone and decided to try it out.  Unsurprisingly, it was painfully slow and I was obviously not in good aerobic condition with an initial MAF test time of 11:45.  Over the past couple of months I have gotten my MAF test down to about 11:00.  This morning I ran my first race since I started training again this year and my time was 23:42 for three miles, right on where the chart says I should be based upon my 11:00 MAF test.  This was a PR for me for that distance going back to the past 10 years that I have been keeping records, and more importantly, I felt like I was cruising vs the old way of going out as fast as possible and just trying to hold on.

         

        So I would say 1) Maffetone is definitely working for me; and 2) the MAF Test chart on this thread is consistent with my results.

         

        Now on to LA Marathon in March!

         

        Damon 

         

        Great, Damon.

         

        I also started using Maffetone as a guide (not doing it in full because I race a lot) since June and my times have gotten back to pre-asthma levels and my asthma attacks have ceased.  I usually race by HR instead of pace and it has helped me as well.

        Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

        Blog

        "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

        dwillens


          Damaris:  funny that you should mention racing by HR.  That's what I did at the recent Turkey Trot and I felt that it was a very good way to race without killing myself. Plus my heart rate monitor is much faster at picking up changes than my GPS which can be all over the place on pace.  I have seen other posters here who use HRM in training but not in races, but I am not sure why not. It seems like if you know that your sustainable HR for a half marathon is 160 (for example), using that to monitor your pace would allow you to account for things such as hills, temperature, etc.

           

          Good job fighting off the asthma! Have fun in Vegas this weekend.

           

          Damon


          Bad Ass

            Damaris:  funny that you should mention racing by HR.  That's what I did at the recent Turkey Trot and I felt that it was a very good way to race without killing myself. Plus my heart rate monitor is much faster at picking up changes than my GPS which can be all over the place on pace.  I have seen other posters here who use HRM in training but not in races, but I am not sure why not. It seems like if you know that your sustainable HR for a half marathon is 160 (for example), using that to monitor your pace would allow you to account for things such as hills, temperature, etc.

             

            Good job fighting off the asthma! Have fun in Vegas this weekend.

             

            Damon

             

            Thanks.  I've been racing by HR since June with a lot of success.  At least now I can do a pace and watch that my HR does not go above X.  Spikes in HR have predicted asthma attacks so the more I watch it the better I've done.

             

            Having said that, i've surprised myself by being able to run a 5K at 5-7bpms higher than I expected without having an asthma attack.  Could be that my condition has improved or that the estimated HR was wrong.  Either way, I like it.

            Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

            Blog

            "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

            labhiker


              Out of curiosity, how does your HR plan look for race day (or 26.2)? 

               

              I’m assuming it is like a progression run and over the course of the race you slowly allow your HR to rise within pre-determined target zones.  For my last few races this was my strategy.  I started the first ¼ around or slightly above my MAF (say MAF to MAF+10) and then slowly built each quarter by allowing my target zone to increase by about +10.  Towards the end I’d let my HR climb toward 170+ and gut it out to the finish. 

               

              For shorter distances (~10M) I found this helps to ensure a very strong finish, however at times I question if it acts as too much of governor and holds you back from reaching you full potential?  With this being said I believe it helps to better manage the 26.2 distance and not blow-up during the last 6 miles. 

              labhiker


              Consistently Slow

                Out of curiosity, how does your HR plan look for race day (or 26.2)? 

                 

                I’m assuming it is like a progression run and over the course of the race you slowly allow your HR to rise within pre-determined target zones.  For my last few races this was my strategy.  I started the first ¼ around or slightly above my MAF (say MAF to MAF+10) and then slowly built each quarter by allowing my target zone to increase by about +10.  Towards the end I’d let my HR climb toward 170+ and gut it out to the finish. 

                 

                For shorter distances (~10M) I found this helps to ensure a very strong finish, however at times I question if it acts as too much of governor and holds you back from reaching you full potential?  With this being said I believe it helps to better manage the 26.2 distance and not blow-up during the last 6 miles. 

                 +1

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                dwillens


                  Thanks.  I've been racing by HR since June with a lot of success.  At least now I can do a pace and watch that my HR does not go above X.  Spikes in HR have predicted asthma attacks so the more I watch it the better I've done.

                   

                  Having said that, i've surprised myself by being able to run a 5K at 5-7bpms higher than I expected without having an asthma attack.  Could be that my condition has improved or that the estimated HR was wrong.  Either way, I like it.

                   

                  Damaris:  how was RNR? Details please. Smile

                   

                  Damon

                    Damaris:  funny that you should mention racing by HR.  That's what I did at the recent Turkey Trot and I felt that it was a very good way to race without killing myself. Plus my heart rate monitor is much faster at picking up changes than my GPS which can be all over the place on pace.  I have seen other posters here who use HRM in training but not in races, but I am not sure why not. It seems like if you know that your sustainable HR for a half marathon is 160 (for example), using that to monitor your pace would allow you to account for things such as hills, temperature, etc.

                     

                    Good job fighting off the asthma! Have fun in Vegas this weekend.

                     

                    Damon

                     

                    well what I do is start at an estimated race pace, with a HR ceiling set (different ceiling for first half of the race than second half, etc). if there's a hill then I just look at what HR I'm currently at and hold that until end of hill... with a steady race pace held, HR overall keeps climbing until end of race.

                     

                    this combination of HR and pace works best for me. I would definitely not want to race just by HR alone. there's too many variables in a race affecting your HR. just like your pace. e.g. adrenaline :P also, you mention temperature affects pace, well for me it affects HR too, I can race a higher average HR in hotter weather. (of course hills, the other factor you mention, doesn't affect HR so it's great for that!)

                      oh wow I found my old posts in this thread...

                       

                      11:30-11:40 *180-age MAF pace*, 7:32 5K pace (23:28)

                      13:00 *180-age MAF pace*, 10:10 HM pace (2:13:35)

                       

                      since then new data:

                      10:10-ish *180-age MAF pace*, 7:10 10K pace (43:48)

                       

                      now: 9:10-ish *180-age MAF pace*, if I were to run 5K now it would be something 20: xx, I will post when I have race data available

                        oh wow I found my old posts in this thread...

                         

                        11:30-11:40 *180-age MAF pace*, 7:32 5K pace (23:28)

                        13:00 *180-age MAF pace*, 10:10 HM pace (2:13:35)

                         

                        since then new data:

                        10:10-ish *180-age MAF pace*, 7:10 10K pace (43:48)

                         

                        now: 9:10-ish *180-age MAF pace*, if I were to run 5K now it would be something 20: xx, I will post when I have race data available

                         

                        Wow, that's great improvement!  Nice work!  How long have you been MAFFing?

                        Eric

                         

                        PRs:  5k - (20:42) 3/9/2013 18:55 (9/28/13)

                                   10k - (42:42) 3/23/2013 39:11 (10/26/13) course was short @ 6.0 mi :)

                                   10 mi - (1:12:10) 4/6/2013

                                   HM - (1:34:38) 4/27/2013

                          Wow, that's great improvement!  Nice work!  How long have you been MAFFing?

                           

                          thanks Smile

                           

                          I no longer use a strict 180-age formula, so my training when base building can be called only general LHR, not MAF. and then during race season I do anaerobic workouts too.

                           

                          (the paces I mention here are according to the 180-age HR, though, to allow comparison.)

                           

                          anyway I started in March 2010 (14-15min/mile MAF pace using 180-age formula), the first two datapoints above are from May 2010 (13min MAF/HM race) and September 2010 (23:28 5K/etc).

                           

                          really, it's all the result of consistent training over the years. (though I missed a few months here and there in 2011 and 2012 so maybe it could be even better if I hadn't missed any time Smile )

                             

                            really, it's all the result of consistent training over the years.  

                             

                            That's what I'm talkin' about.  Nice job building fitness and speed the right way over time.  That's my goal!

                            Eric

                             

                            PRs:  5k - (20:42) 3/9/2013 18:55 (9/28/13)

                                       10k - (42:42) 3/23/2013 39:11 (10/26/13) course was short @ 6.0 mi :)

                                       10 mi - (1:12:10) 4/6/2013

                                       HM - (1:34:38) 4/27/2013

                               

                              That's what I'm talkin' about.  Nice job building fitness and speed the right way over time.  That's my goal!

                               

                              good luck to you Smile

                                hello, i did a search for MAF tests > 10 min mile pace and found this helpful thread.  i've taken the suggested data points from Jimmy's OP and extrapolated them out to smaller increments in the table below:

                                 

                                MAF Pace5k Pace5k Time10k Pace10k TimeHM PaceHM TimeM PaceM Time
                                13:00 09:00 27:59 09:21 58:07 00:09:53 02:09:34 00:10:24 04:32:40
                                12:56 08:58 27:53 09:19 57:55 00:09:51 02:09:07 00:10:22 04:31:44
                                12:52 08:56 27:47 09:17 57:42 00:09:49 02:08:38 00:10:20 04:30:43
                                12:48 08:54 27:41 09:15 57:30 00:09:47 02:08:11 00:10:18 04:29:46
                                12:45 08:52 27:35 09:13 57:17 00:09:45 02:07:42 00:10:15 04:28:46
                                12:41 08:50 27:28 09:11 57:03 00:09:43 02:07:11 00:10:13 04:27:40
                                12:37 08:49 27:25 09:10 56:56 00:09:41 02:06:55 00:10:12 04:27:07
                                12:33 08:47 27:19 09:08 56:44 00:09:39 02:06:29 00:10:10 04:26:11
                                12:30 08:45 27:13 09:06 56:31 00:09:37 02:06:00 00:10:07 04:25:10
                                12:26 08:43 27:07 09:04 56:19 00:09:35 02:05:33 00:10:05 04:24:13
                                12:22 08:41 27:00 09:01 56:04 00:09:32 02:05:00 00:10:02 04:23:03
                                12:18 08:39 26:54 08:59 55:52 00:09:30 02:04:33 00:10:00 04:22:07
                                12:15 08:37 26:48 08:58 55:40 00:09:28 02:04:06 00:09:58 04:21:10
                                12:11 08:35 26:42 08:55 55:27 00:09:26 02:03:37 00:09:56 04:20:09
                                12:07 08:34 26:39 08:54 55:21 00:09:25 02:03:24 00:09:55 04:19:41
                                12:03 08:32 26:32 08:52 55:06 00:09:23 02:02:50 00:09:52 04:18:31
                                12:00 08:30 26:26 08:50 54:54 00:09:21 02:02:23 00:09:50 04:17:35
                                11:56 08:28 26:20 08:48 54:41 00:09:18 02:01:54 00:09:48 04:16:34
                                11:52 08:26 26:14 08:46 54:29 00:09:16 02:01:28 00:09:45 04:15:37
                                11:48 08:24 26:07 08:44 54:14 00:09:14 02:00:54 00:09:43 04:14:27
                                11:45 08:22 26:01 08:42 54:02 00:09:12 02:00:28 00:09:41 04:13:31
                                11:41 08:20 25:55 08:40 53:49 00:09:10 01:59:59 00:09:38 04:12:30
                                11:37 08:19 25:52 08:39 53:43 00:09:08 01:59:45 00:09:37 04:12:01
                                11:33 08:17 25:46 08:37 53:31 00:09:06 01:59:18 00:09:35 04:11:05
                                11:30 08:15 25:39 08:34 53:16 00:09:04 01:58:45 00:09:32 04:09:45
                                11:26 08:13 25:33 08:32 53:04 00:09:02 01:58:18 00:09:30 04:08:58
                                11:22 08:12 25:30 08:31 52:58 00:09:01 01:58:05 00:09:29 04:08:30
                                11:18 08:10 25:24 08:29 52:45 00:08:59 01:57:36 00:09:27 04:07:29
                                11:15 08:08 25:18 08:27 52:33 00:08:57 01:57:09 00:09:25 04:06:33
                                11:11 08:06 25:11 08:25 52:18 00:08:54 01:56:36 00:09:22 04:05:23
                                11:07 08:04 25:05 08:23 52:06 00:08:52 01:56:09 00:09:20 04:04:26
                                11:03 08:02 24:59 08:21 51:53 00:08:50 01:55:40 00:09:17 04:03:25
                                11:00 08:00 24:53 08:19 51:41 00:08:48 01:55:13 00:09:15 04:02:29
                                10:56 07:58 24:47 08:17 51:28 00:08:46 01:54:44 00:09:13 04:01:28
                                10:52 07:56 24:40 08:15 51:14 00:08:43 01:54:13 00:09:10 04:00:22
                                10:48 07:54 24:34 08:13 51:01 00:08:41 01:53:44 00:09:08 03:59:21
                                10:45 07:52 24:28 08:11 50:49 00:08:39 01:53:17 00:09:06 03:58:25
                                10:41 07:50 24:22 08:09 50:36 00:08:37 01:52:48 00:09:04 03:57:24
                                10:37 07:49 24:19 08:08 50:30 00:08:36 01:52:35 00:09:03 03:56:56
                                10:33 07:47 24:12 08:05 50:16 00:08:33 01:52:04 00:09:00 03:55:50
                                10:30 07:45 24:06 08:03 50:03 00:08:31 01:51:35 00:08:58 03:54:49
                                10:26 07:43 24:00 08:01 49:51 00:08:29 01:51:08 00:08:56 03:53:53
                                10:22 07:42 23:57 08:00 49:44 00:08:28 01:50:52 00:08:54 03:53:20
                                10:18 07:40 23:51 07:58 49:32 00:08:26 01:50:26 00:08:52 03:52:24
                                10:15 07:38 23:44 07:56 49:17 00:08:23 01:49:52 00:08:50 03:51:13
                                10:11 07:36 23:38 07:54 49:05 00:08:21 01:49:25 00:08:47 03:50:17
                                10:07 07:34 23:32 07:52 48:52 00:08:19 01:48:56 00:08:45 03:49:16
                                10:03 07:32 23:26 07:50 48:40 00:08:17 01:48:30 00:08:43 03:48:20
                                10:00 07:30 23:19 07:48 48:25 00:08:14 01:47:56 00:08:40 03:47:10

                                 

                                [the 5k times and paces are based on the OP and McMillan provided the corresponding 10k, Half Marathon and Marathon pace/time predictors]

                                 

                                hope this is helpful & peace out

                                My wife says i have a short attention spanners are great, aren't they?