Low HR Training

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Low HR Training (Read 8181 times)

    I'll guess I'll have to locate my HRM's directions. My sister got me one for Christmas but, I haven't really used it much yet. I've been trying to run easy just by feel. Yesterday I was able to sing Johnny Cash's "Ring of Fire" fairly easily while running but, if I have the equipment I might as well use it. Thanks for the links.

    The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.


    Prophet!

      I feel comfortable with my speeds, so do you really think I should slow it down?
      just a thought, ...Callie (i like that name by the way)..i seem to remember in a thread somewhere you were saying that you had trouble going up past 40 mpw ? (if i'm wrong then disregard and discard, redacted) Might not be a bad idea to slow it down just a bit and see if you can get more mileage without getting hurt. Going to 50 or above might just be all you need..


      run-easy-race-hard

        In response to a few of the posts - it's fairly standard to think of running at a heart rate of 170 as an easy run. But, I can assure you that unless you are an aerobic beast, that's going to be mostly anaerobic for most anyone over the age of about 20. It really doesn't matter much what your max heart rate is, unless you have a very low max heart rate, in which case, you'll have to use a HR much less than suggested by Maffetone and similar approaches. I'm 37 and my max HR is 210. I run most of my mileage at about 135-140. Maffetone would tell me to train at 148 and below, Mittleman, 153 and below. I used to run most of my training runs at 165-180 and I could maintain conversations the entire time. In fact, I've run a few marathons with people at 5 beats below anaerobic threshold (avg HR of 172) and talked clearly through the entire race. When I started this type of training, my pace was 17 minutes per mile at a RH of 145 on a treadmill. Now, about 2 years later, without a lick of speedwork, tempo runs, or any hard workouts other than the races I've done (which have been numerous), my pace on the treadmill at a HR of 139 is from 7-7:20/mile. Please note that if you're below about 25 years old or above 55 or so, you really need to be ready to make adjustments to formulas.
          Pam ~ burning? What burning? Big grin Surf, you're right. I have mentioned that 40 miles+ gives me problems. And you're also right that that likely has a lot to do with my speed. I'll start trying to slow down a bit. (and I love your quote. my husband and I cracked up laughing when Sylar used that line.) Jesse, I hear what you're saying, but I have such a mental block about letting go of that pace number. Running at below a 153 wouldn't be so bad, because that is a 9ish mile for me until the very end of a long run (when it naturally goes up to about 158 for the same speed). And I can see myself running at that pace and not having any hang ups. But I can't imagine trying to run at 135-145. I know, I know, it's a different method of training and I would have to get rid of any preconceived ideas of pace. But can you see this plan working for me in the next 6 months? I want to qualify for Boston in either December or February (can't decide which race to do) and I am afraid that running at such 'slow' paces will hurt my training. I really am interested in hearing the answers to these questions. You guys have intrigued me with the information already posted, and I imagine that the lower heart rate translating into lower speed would also help my knees.
          "Running is a big question mark that's there each and every day. It asks you, 'Are you going to be a wimp or are you going to be strong today?' " - Peter Maher, Irish-Canadian Olympian
            Thanks for all the great info, everyone. After I do my half marathon this weekend, I plan to do some low HR training throughout the summer to build my base in preparation for a December marathon. I tried one workout a couple weeks ago of trying to run 90 minutes in HR zone 2 (forget the #/% right now). Man, it was difficult! It's nice to see you guys commenting that it's hard to run slow. Being a newbie, I just felt like something was wrong.

            When it’s all said and done, will you have said more than you’ve done?

              Formationflier - after reading your post and your blog page, I was wondering if you could clarify a few things for me, and I admit, I have not read through all the links yet! 1) Seems like there must be a minimum mpw range for the MAF method to work - what would that mileage be? 2) How does this strengthen legs and hips? 3) Seems like you would have to cut back on stride length/cadence if your aerobic conditioning was poor and you had to significantly decrease your pace. You said that when you started, you were "running" a 17 min mile - does that increase the impact stress to your legs? Seems like if you maintain cadence, some will be transferred to vertical bounce=^impact force, if you slow your cadence too much seems like it is harder to run lightly = ^impact force. I am overthinking this big time= Black eye I can walk aggressively at a 13 min pace, however I generate more impact than if I were to "run" at the same pace - although my HR would be lower walking than running. I'm really curious about how/what you did to run that slow. I'm a little skittish when it comes to impact stress. I'm just gathering facts right now, as I am not ready to start a plan just yet. Thanks Smile

              Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the number of moments that take our breath away...(unkown)




              Go With The Flow
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              run-easy-race-hard

                Formationflier - after reading your post and your blog page, I was wondering if you could clarify a few things for me, and I admit, I have not read through all the links yet! 1) Seems like there must be a minimum mpw range for the MAF method to work - what would that mileage be? 2) How does this strengthen legs and hips? 3) Seems like you would have to cut back on stride length/cadence if your aerobic conditioning was poor and you had to significantly decrease your pace. You said that when you started, you were "running" a 17 min mile - does that increase the impact stress to your legs? Seems like if you maintain cadence, some will be transferred to vertical bounce=^impact force, if you slow your cadence too much seems like it is harder to run lightly = ^impact force. I am overthinking this big time= Black eye I can walk aggressively at a 13 min pace, however I generate more impact than if I were to "run" at the same pace - although my HR would be lower walking than running. I'm really curious about how/what you did to run that slow. I'm a little skittish when it comes to impact stress. I'm just gathering facts right now, as I am not ready to start a plan just yet. Thanks Smile
                All very valid questions. I do touch on most of those in the FAQ, but here's the brief answer. There is no single answer for minimum mileage. Some people have been successful at 15 mpw, but for most people, it would take an inordinately long time to build endurance running 15 mpw. This is all about endurance which, in the running world, correlates to the ability to run for a long time and stay strong. Hence, if you don't plan to run a long time, then why worry about endurance? My suggestion to most is to put in at least 25-30 mpw. The more mileage you put in, the better path you're on to building endurance. I was only able to "run" 17 min/mile on the treadmill. Couldn't go that slowly outside (down hills wouldn't have been a problem!) I used this slow running time to work on softening my running step and I did temporarily shorten my stride. Oddly enough, before I started this, I was one of those people on the treadmill that you would just hear pounding and pounding away, as if the machine were about to break into pieces. Now you can't even hear me running on the treadmill or outside, even at a 6:30/mile pace. Slowing down and changing your stride can basically be a new form of crosstraining that will give you new types of fatigue and stress, so you can expect soreness for perhaps a couple of weeks. However, if you get enough time in with some downhill elements (which may mean powerwalking the ups), then your pace should transition to a reasonable pace after a few weeks. One thing that I won't claim is that suddenly you'll be a truly faster runner after this, even after 6 months. But it will eventually help stretch out your short distance speed to long distances. Scroll through the FAQ if you want to see slightly more expansion on some of these topics.


                Forever Learning

                  Is there any consensus on adjusting zones based on heat/humidity (as this has an effect on HR). Or better said, when using MAF, if I am 34 and have been running for a few years I would be at (180-34+5 )=151. As an aside, that is right at 70%HRR. So in a typical Summer morning in Houston with temps in the 70's and high humidity I would use 151+6/7 to get 158 as my MAF? I look to this article as the basis for the suggestion - http://www.pfitzinger.com/labreports/heartrate.shtml Doing these MAF runs at <151 is yielding paces near 11:30/mile - a full 2 minutes slower than paces suggested by mcmillan and daniels. if i used 157 my pace would be closer to 10:20/10:30 based on my last 2 weeks worth of data. tia! is="" yielding="" paces="" near="" 11:30/mile="" -="" a="" full="" 2="" minutes="" slower="" than="" paces="" suggested="" by="" mcmillan="" and="" daniels.="" if="" i="" used="" 157="" my="" pace="" would="" be="" closer="" to="" 10:20/10:30="" based="" on="" my="" last="" 2="" weeks="" worth="" of="" data.=""></151 is yielding paces near 11:30/mile - a full 2 minutes slower than paces suggested by mcmillan and daniels. if i used 157 my pace would be closer to 10:20/10:30 based on my last 2 weeks worth of data. tia!>


                  Wasatch Speedgoat

                    My thinking is that the heart will adjust according to the stress....if it's H&H, then a slower pace you will run. If you are tired, you will run slower because your HR is high that day....that's the nice thing about running by HR, it will determine the speed you run that day and keep you from working too hard. If you really believe in this system and read Jesse's FAQ, you will see that struggling with the slower paces early on will build your aerobic base rapidly. You will not be running that slow pace forever and will soon be at that 10 mpm at that same low HR. I think it pays in time to take the max HR test I mention in the other post to find your true max and resting and base your training on zones from those numbers. You might just find that you need to train at a higher HR than the MAF formula suggests! It is only a good starting point. So getting to your original question, just follow the HR and you will be running the correct pace for that day. Good luck! Steve
                    Life is short, play hard!


                    run-easy-race-hard

                      My take is that no matter how high your max heart rate is, you wouldn't want to adjust your MAF upward. Ultimately when you become an aerobic beast (at this point you can run a darn good pace at a very low heart rate) you can adjust it very high, but until then, it should be low because you need to be working well into your fat burning regime. The reason is that while your max heart rate may be high, your anaerobic threshold is not likely to be high as well. As far as heat adjustments go, if you really want to reap the benefits of low HR training, you won't adjust upward due to heat. That's not to say that you don't perhaps give up this form of training for a couple of weeks, perhaps momentarily going in the opposite direction, until you become acclimated. That's personal choice. Pfitzinger has a great training program for peak performance, but it's somewhat the opposite of low HR training, at least for someone who is not aerobically fit. That's why many new runners who are not yet ready for "advanced marathoning" become injured with it.


                      Forever Learning

                        Thanks for the advice. I have hit a max HR of 190 running 800 intervals, 186 doing hill repeats and 189 at the end of last weeks 5-K. I am using 194 as my MHR (189+5) to get to the 70%HRR mentioned above. I will hang in there for the next several weeks and hope to see progress before I kick into my HM program.
                          , until you become acclimated.
                          Just wondering what your take is on becoming "acclimated". I've perceived it to being a mental thing, but you seem to suggest it is something one can overcome physiologically. Can one, through acclimation, lower the body's need to send more blood to the surface for cooling?

                          Ricky

                          —our ability to perform up to our physiological potential in a race is determined by whether or not we truly psychologically believe that what we are attempting is realistic. Anton Krupicka


                          run-easy-race-hard

                            Yes!!! In getting acclimated, the following will happen over time (and volume) at a given temperature level: 1. The body will become more efficient at cooling. 2. Loss of fluids and electrolytes will occur at a slower rate. 3. Your pace at a given heart rate will improve. How long it takes to acclimate to a certain level will depend on a lot of factors, including some very individual ones.
                              I notice that the dates on posts here go up to mid 2007 or so. Does anyone still post here? Is there a better place to find an LHR training thread?
                                I notice that the dates on posts here go up to mid 2007 or so. Does anyone still post here? Is there a better place to find an LHR training thread?
                                This whole forum is dedicated to low heart rate training, and yep, it's pretty active, especially recently. You should definitely check out some of the other threads or start a new one. This thread in particular, though, hasn't been posted on since June.
                                sean
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