Low HR Training

1

Base building with Maf, Race specific with Daniels (Read 983 times)

    Hello,

    I think I am just about finished with what is good base building phase for me. At the end of this week, I will have strung together 6 weeks at 50 miles a week, the last three at 55. All this has been done running one hour a day at Maf pace for me of 133 and longer runs on Saturday at whatever the guys on the local club want to run. (generally slower than Maf for me)

     

    I have run a 40:48 10km with nothing other than Maf pace mileage. I have signed up for my second race, a 30km race at the end of March, which will be another stepping stone towards my goal of my first marathon sometime next year.

     

    I could quite happily keep doing Maf pace hour long runs forever, I quite like it. However, I think that some faster pace running is going to become necessary in the near future if I want to race better. Has anybody moved from Maf basebuilding into a Daniels program? What else have people done for race training? I should probaby add that I haven't read any of the Mafetone books.

     

    My training time is limited during the week to 1 hour runs in the morning during weekdays. On weekends I can do whatever Iike, however I do need some energy for living.

     

    kevin

    jimmyb


      Has you aerobic speed (speed at MAF) improved through the base period?

       

      Adding anaerobic work can be done many ways, though it should be a minimal percentage of your total volume. You've had a solid 6 weeks of aerobic work, with some substantial distance. If you decide to go anaerobic, try adding one workout per week, perhaps a 20 minute tempo run between 80-90% MHR, or some fartlek in the same range. See if it affects your aerobic speed positively. If you do a tempo run, try it on the same course each time to see if it improves as well. Both aerobic speed and speed in your threshold range (I think of it as anaerobic speed) should improve. Of course, you could always just get to the business of racing and that is usually all the anaerobic work you need.

       

      Progression runs can be fun. Try a one to two hour run. Warmup twenty minutes to MAF, then increase speed gradually over time until you reach 90% MHR for the last mile. Perhaps sprinting the last quarter mile.

       

      Keep track of your aerobic speed (MAF tests) throughout the anaerobic/racing season. If it starts regressing, it might be time for some rest or another base period.

       

      --Jimmy

      Log    PRs

        November: 381.4 km 30:27:19 4:48 / km
        October: 278.3 km 22:16:40 4:49 / km
        September: 270.4 km 21:19:46 4:44 / km
        August: 264.4 km 22:05:51 5:01 / km
        July: 212.1 km 18:26:10 5:13 / km

        Here is my training summary. Maf pace has gone up from 5:13/km to 4:48/km and mileage has gone up from 212 km in July to 381 in November. Saturday runs in November were 22 km runs at over 5:10 pace with the local running club so they made my average quite a bit slower I think.

        I like the idea of adding one faster run at week at 80 to 90 percent heart rate.

         

        kevin

        jimmyb


          Daniel's talks about 20 minute tempos  in Running Formula. I do a heart time version of them come anaerobic time. I also like progression runs and marathon race pace tempos (which can be long). Though it's been 3 years since I've done a marathon.

           

          If your body is ready for the anaerobic work, you will see a nice improvement in your aerobic speed.

           

          --Jimmy

          Log    PRs

          Shondek


            Has you aerobic speed (speed at MAF) improved through the base period?

             

            Adding anaerobic work can be done many ways, though it should be a minimal percentage of your total volume. You've had a solid 6 weeks of aerobic work, with some substantial distance. If you decide to go anaerobic, try adding one workout per week, perhaps a 20 minute tempo run between 80-90% MHR, or some fartlek in the same range. See if it affects your aerobic speed positively. If you do a tempo run, try it on the same course each time to see if it improves as well. Both aerobic speed and speed in your threshold range (I think of it as anaerobic speed) should improve. Of course, you could always just get to the business of racing and that is usually all the anaerobic work you need.

             

            Progression runs can be fun. Try a one to two hour run. Warmup twenty minutes to MAF, then increase speed gradually over time until you reach 90% MHR for the last mile. Perhaps sprinting the last quarter mile.

             

            Keep track of your aerobic speed (MAF tests) throughout the anaerobic/racing season. If it starts regressing, it might be time for some rest or another base period.

             

            --Jimmy

             I've read that even tho you're anaerobic speed could be improving at a given heart rate you're maf times could be at the same time regressing, has anyone here  experienced this phenomenon.. ?

               I've read that even tho you're anaerobic speed could be improving at a given heart rate you're maf times could be at the same time regressing, has anyone here  experienced this phenomenon.. ?

               

               

              not me, at least not yet; whenever my anaerobic speed improved, maf also did, though maybe less improvement at that HR than at higher HR. (but then doing base build phase will make it "line up" pretty fast.)

               

               

              perhaps a 20 minute tempo run between 80-90% MHR, or some fartlek in the same range. 

               

              (...)

               

              you could always just get to the business of racing and that is usually all the anaerobic work you need.

               

              (...)

               

              --Jimmy

               

               

              heh, uh, the difference between 80% and 90% is vast in my case (in terms of pace, breathing, subjective effort, everything). so I always found that sort of advice pretty weird. why not limit it to a narrower range.

               

              as for racing, isn't it more taxing than intervals or tempo runs? or in return for it being more taxing, does a race force more improvement than an anaerobic training run would?

              jimmyb


                not me, at least not yet; whenever my anaerobic speed improved, maf also did, though maybe less improvement at that HR than at higher HR. (but then doing base build phase will make it "line up" pretty fast.)

                 

                 

                 

                 

                heh, uh, the difference between 80% and 90% is vast in my case (in terms of pace, breathing, subjective effort, everything). so I always found that sort of advice pretty weird. why not limit it to a narrower range.

                 

                as for racing, isn't it more taxing than intervals or tempo runs? or in return for it being more taxing, does a race force more improvement than an anaerobic training run would?

                 

                My heart time  LT runs are in a zone of 85%-90% MHR. Narrow and (not-weird) enough, C? Cool

                 

                I got that 80-90% zone from Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning, and found it to be effective, and a nice expanse in which to try different things.. You're mostly to almost completely anaerobic in that range. Pretty much why Dr. Phil would see the same improvement in his athlete if they trained at 90% MHR as when they did at 95% and above. 

                 

                Racing is more taxing than tempos and intervals. The point is that, for many people (especially us non-elite age-groupers), if the are racing regularly, it is probably all the anaerobic work they need. They can fill the days in between with aerobic work. An extra anaerobic session in between might not be necessary at all, and could just be overkill. That's the point.

                 

                Some people improve greatly throughout a race season, with no anaerobic workouts in between.

                 

                --Jimmy

                Log    PRs

                  yeah, 85%-90% sounds better than 80%-90%. Smile

                   

                   

                  now must add some slight nitpicking too Smile : I would not be so sure about being "mostly anaerobic" at 80%. some people may have MAF at or higher than 80%: 25 year old person, 190bpm max HR, 155bpm MAF is 82%, i.e. 180-25 and no adjustments, but with adjustments (upwards) it could be even at 84%. Cool 

                   

                   

                  I get the point about the racing idea, thanks, makes a lot of sense that way. (I'm not racing a lot yet, so for me it was OK to do anaerobic sessions.)

                  jimmyb


                    yeah, 85%-90% sounds better than 80%-90%. Smile

                     

                     

                    now must add some slight nitpicking too Smile : I would not be so sure about being "mostly anaerobic" at 80%. some people may have MAF at or higher than 80%: 25 year old person, 190bpm max HR, 155bpm MAF is 82%, i.e. 180-25 and no adjustments, but with adjustments (upwards) it could be even at 84%. Cool 

                     

                     

                    I get the point about the racing idea, thanks, makes a lot of sense that way. (I'm not racing a lot yet, so for me it was OK to do anaerobic sessions.)

                     

                    I understand what you're getting at--there are always cases that create the Bell curve. In cases of a low MHR like that, you could always just work off race paces, using the calculators, and recent race paces. Work between marathon pace and 10-15k pace, and you'll get a good workout. Even just marathon pace will sharpen the anaerobic and get you ready, since you are mostly anaerobic at that pace. When running these various paces, make note of the heart rate and create some zones.

                     

                    Let's say you ran a recent 5k hard in 21:00

                     

                    Pace Wizard gives the following:

                     

                    8:00 Marathon

                    7:34  half Marthon Pace

                    7:22 15k pace

                    7:08 10k

                     

                    Run between 8:00 and 7:08 for 20-30 minutes  and note the heart rates. Make a zone.

                     

                    An LT test (RQ) could help someone in that case as well, then just work off of that HR.

                     

                     

                     

                    --Jimmy

                    Log    PRs

                      I understand what you're getting at--there are always cases that create the Bell curve. In cases of a low MHR like that, you could always just work off race paces, using the calculators, and recent race paces. Work between marathon pace and 10-15k pace, and you'll get a good workout. Even just marathon pace will sharpen the anaerobic and get you ready, since you are mostly anaerobic at that pace. When running these various paces, make note of the heart rate and create some zones.

                       

                      Let's say you ran a recent 5k hard in 21:00

                       

                      Pace Wizard gives the following:

                       

                      8:00 Marathon

                      7:34  half Marthon Pace

                      7:22 15k pace

                      7:08 10k

                       

                      Run between 8:00 and 7:08 for 20-30 minutes  and note the heart rates. Make a zone.

                       

                      An LT test (RQ) could help someone in that case as well, then just work off of that HR.

                       

                       

                       

                      --Jimmy

                       

                       

                      yeah, that's a good idea, I have done pace based training but with the HRM this way. Smile