Low HR Training

12

Maffetone, HADD or Lydiard? (Read 1117 times)

gooner2004


    Hi All,

     

    I'm a 42 yr runner from the UK who has got to the stage in my life where i'm fed up with niggling injuries and i'm  wanting to try something different with my running. My PB is a 1:30 HM and i'm running my first marathon in 2 weeks hoping for 3:15.  Once I've completed the marathon I'm looking to start HR training. I've spent the last 4 weeks reading many articles on different Heart rate methods and now I'm like a child in a sweet shop(candy store) where I don't know which method to go for. Please can someone suggest which method is the best Maff, HADD or Lydiard.

     

    Thanks for your help.

    Dr.R


      Read the sticky by Jimmy, that should give you a good base.

      I'm all about Maffetone, and having placed many people on the program, I can verify the successful healthy changes that are seen.

      There are many people with much more experience in all the other systems, but for me Maffetone makes the greatest phsyiological sense.  Good luck!

      jimmyb


        Hi All,

         

        I'm a 42 yr runner from the UK who has got to the stage in my life where i'm fed up with niggling injuries and i'm  wanting to try something different with my running. My PB is a 1:30 HM and i'm running my first marathon in 2 weeks hoping for 3:15.  Once I've completed the marathon I'm looking to start HR training. I've spent the last 4 weeks reading many articles on different Heart rate methods and now I'm like a child in a sweet shop(candy store) where I don't know which method to go for. Please can someone suggest which method is the best Maff, HADD or Lydiard.

         

        Thanks for your help.

         

        Hi Gooner,

         

        Welcome to the forum.

         

        The one thing that all three methods have in common is a period of just aerobic running. You want to build a solid aerobic base before you reintroduce anaerobic work.

         

        Where they differ is what intensity should run it during this period. Lydiard said "run at your best aerobic speed"---something like that---which I always found a bit vague. Hadd has a few categories based on your MHR, and gives HR's somewhere in the neighborhood of 74-75%MHR.

         

        The Maffetone Method is based on a specific intensity where your body just begins to incorporate the anaerobic system or sugar-burning fibers. Working at MAF (maximum aerobic function or heart rate) or below keeps you working aerobic fat-burning fibers. Working at MAF builds endurance with much less physical and chemical stress on the body. It's specific and not based on MHR. You monitor your speed at MAF with an MAF test done on the same course for the same amount of time or distance. If that speed is improving---your body is handling your current volume and total stress load (running + life +diet). If your speed isn't improving or regressing, then adjustments have to made. THis doesn't necessarily mean a cut in volume---it could mean you need more, or it might be time for anaerobic work. You'll learn more about your own numbers as you go.

         

        The MAF test never lies.

         

        I've done HAdd before, and found it to not produce the best results. His idea is to raise your intensity incrementally, allowing the body to be able to handle more and more lactate---increase the lactate threshold. 

         

        I found that if I do a good MAF period, and get my aerobic speed to a certain number, then when I am ready  just do one 20-30 tempo run per 1-2 weeks  around 87-90%MHR, along with some marathon race pace runs---with everything else at MAF---I'm ready for a marathon. SOme just start racing and do nothing but MAF in between races. Racing is all the speedwork you will need.

         

        Good luck, and keep us posted.

        ---JimmySmile

        Log    PRs

        gooner2004


          Jimmy,

           

          Your help is much appreciated. I've just bought the book Big Endurance Training by Maffetone and I'm going to give it a go.

           

          I currently run 35 to 50 miles a week how much mileage everyday do you need to run using the Maffetone theory to see big improvements?

           

          Thanks

           

          Gooner

          jimmyb


            Jimmy,

             

            Your help is much appreciated. I've just bought the book Big Endurance Training by Maffetone and I'm going to give it a go.

             

            I currently run 35 to 50 miles a week how much mileage everyday do you need to run using the Maffetone theory to see big improvements?

             

            Thanks

             

            Gooner

             

            It depends on where you are at. The key is the MAF test, or the monitoring of your aerobic speed. Just follow that. Your optimum training load will be different at different times. You might find that you are progressing fine with 35 miles per week in the summer and 50 miles per week in the fall, due to the difference in the heat stress (remember that your training load is all the stress combined). During a mind-numbing stress period, you might be reduced to 15 miles per week so as not to fall into overtraining. 

             

            Just keep nudging up the volume every week. Do an MAF test every 3-4 weeks. Keep track of the temperature, the humidity, wind speed, and sun/overcast data for each test.  If you don't improve between tests, retest in a few days after some rest. Always take the weather differences into consideration. A test run in 70°  will be slower than one run in 60°. One run in 90% humidity is slower than one run in 40%. When summer comes, you might see regression. Retest weekly if you do. If it was just slowing due to the new temperatures, you should see progression from that point. If you don't, then cut volume down until you do see progress again.

             

            Your daily runs at MAF should also be progressing. You'll get to know yourself after awhile, and will know when things are good and when things aren't. Don't stress about the test or any of this. Have fun.

             

            --Jimmy

            Log    PRs

            gooner2004


              Hi Jimmy,

               

              I did my first MAF test today. Living in the UK we certainly don't get the high temperatures you talk about but it certainly is hilly in places. I ran six miles and here are my results. I would welcome your thoughts for a first test.

               

              <form>

              <colgroup span="12"></colgroup> <tfoot> </tfoot>

              Split

              Time

              Moving Time

              Distance

              Elevation Gain

              Elevation Loss

              Avg Pace

              Avg Moving Pace

              Best Pace

              Avg HR

              Max HR

              Calories

              Summary 52:32.8 52:27.0 6.27 206 206 8:23 8:22 5:44 138 171 980
              1 7:45.8 7:44 1.00 25 50 7:46 7:44 6:18 139 171 155
              2 8:35.3 8:36 1.00 56 24 8:35 8:36 6:12 137 154 155
              3 8:57.8 8:52 1.00 25 0 8:58 8:52 6:52 139 155 159
              4 8:20.5 8:21 1.00 42 28 8:21 8:21 6:59 139 149 155
              5 8:45.9 8:46 1.00 57 11 8:46 8:46 7:12 137 153 157
              6 7:58.1 7:58 1.00 0 85 7:58 7:58 5:44 139 150 159
              7 2:09.5 2:10 0.28 0 9 7:51 7:52 6:30 137 152 40
              </form>

                

              jimmyb


                Hi Jimmy,

                 

                I did my first MAF test today. Living in the UK we certainly don't get the high temperatures you talk about but it certainly is hilly in places. I ran six miles and here are my results. I would welcome your thoughts for a first test.

                 

                Split

                Time

                Moving Time

                Distance

                Elevation Gain

                Elevation Loss

                Avg Pace

                Avg Moving Pace

                Best Pace

                Avg HR

                Max HR

                Calories

                1 7:45.8 7:44 1.00 25 50 7:46 7:44 6:18 139 171 155
                2 8:35.3 8:36 1.00 56 24 8:35 8:36 6:12 137 154 155
                3 8:57.8 8:52 1.00 25 0 8:58 8:52 6:52 139 155 159
                4 8:20.5 8:21 1.00 42 28 8:21 8:21 6:59 139 149 155
                5 8:45.9 8:46 1.00 57 11 8:46 8:46 7:12 137 153 157
                6 7:58.1 7:58 1.00 0 85 7:58 7:58 5:44 139 150 159
                7 2:09.5 2:10 0.28 0 9 7:51 7:52 6:30 137 152 40

                 

                 

                  Hey Gooner,

                 

                Your paces are actually very good. Looks like a fine test. 7:44 for the first mile is a dream! It looks like you either had some hills in this course,  or you running with the wind that last mile, or you didn't warm-up. A test shouldn't get faster at the end. Probably the course. Just use the same course each time.

                 

                DId you do a warm-up?

                 

                --JimmyCool

                Log    PRs

                gooner2004


                  Hi Jimmy,

                   

                  Where I live there are a numerous small inclines and some big hills. Mile one goes  up hill for 0.3 miles then down for 0.2 before straightening off. I was very surprised my HR was pretty low on this mile as normally my first mile is always high. The last mile had some downhill before going straight so that would compensate for a quick finish.  I didn't warm up I was going to record the first 2 miles as a warm up and take the last 4 as the test. Thanks for the feedback. I'm looking forward to seeing how I much I will improve over the next 4 weeks.

                    Hi Jimmy,

                     

                    I did my first MAF test today. Living in the UK we certainly don't get the high temperatures you talk about but it certainly is hilly in places. I ran six miles and here are my results. I would welcome your thoughts for a first test.

                     

                    Split

                    Time

                    Moving Time

                    Distance

                    Elevation Gain

                    Elevation Loss

                    Avg Pace

                    Avg Moving Pace

                    Best Pace

                    Avg HR

                    Max HR

                    Calories

                    1 7:45.8 7:44 1.00 25 50 7:46 7:44 6:18 139 171 155
                    2 8:35.3 8:36 1.00 56 24 8:35 8:36 6:12 137 154 155
                    3 8:57.8 8:52 1.00 25 0 8:58 8:52 6:52 139 155 159
                    4 8:20.5 8:21 1.00 42 28 8:21 8:21 6:59 139 149 155
                    5 8:45.9 8:46 1.00 57 11 8:46 8:46 7:12 137 153 157
                    6 7:58.1 7:58 1.00 0 85 7:58 7:58 5:44 139 150 159
                    7 2:09.5 2:10 0.28 0 9 7:51 7:52 6:30 137 152 40

                     

                    Hi Gooner (Arsenal fan?),

                    what is the MAF your are working with?

                    Your Max HRs are pretty high (though I'm guessing that the 171 is a garmin error)

                    gooner2004


                      Hi Sean,

                       

                      Firstly yes an Arsenal fan. The MAF i'm working to is 138 and due to mainly living in a very undulating area I'm aiming for each mile pace to average 138. The 171 is yes a Garmin error. The watch for the first mile is always showing a high HR and i'm practically jogging on the spot.

                       

                      I would appreciate hearing any advice or views you can to the thread.

                       

                      Cheers

                      jimmyb


                        Hi Sean,

                         

                        Firstly yes an Arsenal fan. The MAF i'm working to is 138 and due to mainly living in a very undulating area I'm aiming for each mile pace to average 138. The 171 is yes a Garmin error. The watch for the first mile is always showing a high HR and i'm practically jogging on the spot.

                         

                        I would appreciate hearing any advice or views you can to the thread.

                         

                        Cheers

                         

                        I recommend keeping that zone around your MAF pretty tight. For example, you could average 138 running half of the mile at 150 and the other half at 126----depending on the person and the state of the body, this could impede progress. Depending.There will always be spikes.

                         

                        Here's an interview with Lydiard you might enjoy:

                         

                        http://www.runwashington.com/news/1072/325/Running-Faster-An-Interview-with-Arthur-Lydiard.htm

                         

                        Dr. Phil knew him and acknowledges him as an influence.

                         

                        --Jimmy

                        Log    PRs

                          I agree with JimmyB.  My first thought after reviewing your log related more to the maximum HR rather than the Average HR.

                          I did a run last week, where I averaged 137 or so for each mile, and my maximum HR was 144.  Over the course of 10 miles, I was coupled in a very tight HR band.

                           

                          The other thing I noticed was the "best pace" being much faster than the average pace.

                           

                          However, my run was on a treadmill rather than the road, and obviously, the hills of a road would cause HR spikes that don't occur on a treadmill.

                          Cheers,
                          Brian 

                          2014 Goals:

                          #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

                          #2: 365 Hours training <NOPE, INJURED>

                           

                          gooner2004


                            Thanks for the interview Jimmy. Very interesting that Lydiard doesn't like Heart Rate monitors but talks highly of aerobic training. 

                             

                            I did my first ever marathon yesterday and clocked 3:06 i'm delighted and hope my next step of training using Maffetone will see an improvement again.

                            Shondek


                              Hi Gooner,

                               

                              Welcome to the forum.

                               

                              The one thing that all three methods have in common is a period of just aerobic running. You want to build a solid aerobic base before you reintroduce anaerobic work.

                               

                              Where they differ is what intensity should run it during this period. Lydiard said "run at your best aerobic speed"---something like that---which I always found a bit vague. Hadd has a few categories based on your MHR, and gives HR's somewhere in the neighborhood of 74-75%MHR.

                               

                              The Maffetone Method is based on a specific intensity where your body just begins to incorporate the anaerobic system or sugar-burning fibers. Working at MAF (maximum aerobic function or heart rate) or below keeps you working aerobic fat-burning fibers. Working at MAF builds endurance with much less physical and chemical stress on the body. It's specific and not based on MHR. You monitor your speed at MAF with an MAF test done on the same course for the same amount of time or distance. If that speed is improving---your body is handling your current volume and total stress load (running + life +diet). If your speed isn't improving or regressing, then adjustments have to made. THis doesn't necessarily mean a cut in volume---it could mean you need more, or it might be time for anaerobic work. You'll learn more about your own numbers as you go.

                               

                              The MAF test never lies.

                               

                              I've done HAdd before, and found it to not produce the best results. His idea is to raise your intensity incrementally, allowing the body to be able to handle more and more lactate---increase the lactate threshold. 

                               

                              I found that if I do a good MAF period, and get my aerobic speed to a certain number, then when I am ready  just do one 20-30 tempo run per 1-2 weeks  around 87-90%MHR, along with some marathon race pace runs---with everything else at MAF---I'm ready for a marathon. SOme just start racing and do nothing but MAF in between races. Racing is all the speedwork you will need.

                               

                              Good luck, and keep us posted.

                              ---JimmySmile

                               Hey Gooner ..I'm a Celtic man ...when are you guys going to get rid of AV..I suppose when he decides to go?

                              By 'running at your best aerobic speed' Lydiard meant run as fast as you can aerobically with roughly the same effort and maintain the pace.This all takes place under maf but will be different efforts for different runners depending on how well you've built up your base.Keep away from maf and you'll have a better chance of getting it right on the long run .

                              A book I would recommend is Healthy Intelligent Training.I just make maf what they describe as Anaerobic Threshold,ie keep below it and vary your aerobic speed as much as you can  below maf.

                              The book HIT says Marathon effort is just below AT or MAF in my case and hour long runs at that effort can be done from time to time.

                              You are really going to enjoy this type of running..it reminds me of my youth

                               

                              http://hitsystem.com.au/

                              gooner2004


                                Hi Shondek

                                 

                                Arsenal will never get rid of AW. Back to running I actually bought that book about 3 weeks ago and only a few chapters in. I'm currently running to MAF and i'm now in my 3rd week. The last two days i've noticed that i'm having to move my legs quicker to stay at the MAF level of 138 bpm so i must be getting used to running at that pace. I'm going to wait until doing my MAF test next week to see what progress i've made. My ultimate goal is a 3hr marathon in October of this year in Amsterdam so i'm base training at the moment. I'm keen to hear what difference Lydiard has made to your training and race times. The book mentions 1/4, 1/2 & 3/4 runs but doesn't mention how you work out the heart rate zones for these. If you can elaborate on how you work these out that would be good.

                                 

                                I look forward to hearing more from you.

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