Low HR Training

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Going Anaerobic (Read 893 times)

    I'm another CoolRunning Refugee, and am glad to see another LHR thread where I can get support/feedback. Anyway, today I broke the MAF rules and went anaerobic for a short 3 mile run. Honestly, I did it only because I needed some motivation to get out in the 19 degree weather and run again. The thought of just running and not worrying about the HR alert did the trick. I ended up running a fairly hilly 3 miles in 29:40. Not nearly as fast as I can, but enough to feel like a moderate effort run. I've been running under MAF for about 8 weeks now, although I did have to take a week off due to a side effect from a med I'm on. I've read here and back on CoolRunning that going anaerobic after some amount of time is ok. (obviously in Maffetone's book as well) Is the recommendation to stay at about 90% - 95% under MAF still valid? If so, how do I know when it's time to do some anaerobic running? Or is there a way to tell other than by feel? Thanks in advance, CfKid
    jimmyb


      One run is not going to hurt you or your ultimate progress. You can always experiiment with any idea. I felt the same way on Sunday, but reigned myself in and did aerobic intervals, which felt pretty fast with some intervals at 9:30 pace (if you look at my MAF log, you can see why that would feel like flying). It's a worthy experiment to keep aprox 90% of miles at or under MAF during the anaerobic and/or racing season. That once a week LT or intervals or race are pretty much all you need to stay sharp. Again, you can always play around with that number. If you continue with MAF tests every now and then, or keep track of certain aerobic runs that are the same every week, monitor how your aerobic system is doing. I know for me that just 3-4 months of racing, little MAF work, and doing most workouts over MAF, my MAF tests go in the toilet. That's what happened early this year to me. I had just made a 5k PR, and the week after the race, I just decided to give a full commitment to do the aerobic phase of MAF training until February. It's beginning to pay off, as i am dropping weight, my paces are getting faster, and I'm feeling pretty good. I have been chomping at the bit to do a race, but have held off, except for one occasion, but I kept that way under LT, and ran socially. It can be tough though, as racing is what I love and training all the time doesn't fulfill that. But I guess that is how you get to your potential and healthy. Once in awhile one has to rebuild, go through the dog days and reemerge a much better runner. It's time to do anaerobic running when the time you've committed to aerobic base is over. That could be any where from 8 weeks to a year. It's up to you. Maffetone talks about 2 base periods a year. One of at least 12-16 weeks, and another shorter one after spring race season and before fall (that would be a summer base period, Jimbo). So, do your thing. Always maintain an honest self-assessment, and do what you need when you need it. If you like racing, remember that is why you are doing this training. You aren't Maffing to just Maff. So get a few goals going! Mine is Vermont City Marathon! I just signed up. I'm so psyched! --Jimmy

      Log    PRs

        One run is not going to hurt you or your ultimate progress. You can always experiiment with any idea. I felt the same way on Sunday, but reigned myself in and did aerobic intervals, which felt pretty fast with some intervals at 9:30 pace (if you look at my MAF log, you can see why that would feel like flying). It's a worthy experiment to keep aprox 90% of miles at or under MAF during the anaerobic and/or racing season. That once a week LT or intervals or race are pretty much all you need to stay sharp. Again, you can always play around with that number. If you continue with MAF tests every now and then, or keep track of certain aerobic runs that are the same every week, monitor how your aerobic system is doing. I know for me that just 3-4 months of racing, little MAF work, and doing most workouts over MAF, my MAF tests go in the toilet. That's what happened early this year to me. I had just made a 5k PR, and the week after the race, I just decided to give a full commitment to do the aerobic phase of MAF training until February. It's beginning to pay off, as i am dropping weight, my paces are getting faster, and I'm feeling pretty good. I have been chomping at the bit to do a race, but have held off, except for one occasion, but I kept that way under LT, and ran socially. It can be tough though, as racing is what I love and training all the time doesn't fulfill that. But I guess that is how you get to your potential and healthy. Once in awhile one has to rebuild, go through the dog days and reemerge a much better runner. It's time to do anaerobic running when the time you've committed to aerobic base is over. That could be any where from 8 weeks to a year. It's up to you. Maffetone talks about 2 base periods a year. One of at least 12-16 weeks, and another shorter one after spring race season and before fall (that would be a summer base period, Jimbo). So, do your thing. Always maintain an honest self-assessment, and do what you need when you need it. If you like racing, remember that is why you are doing this training. You aren't Maffing to just Maff. So get a few goals going! Mine is Vermont City Marathon! I just signed up. I'm so psyched! --Jimmy
        Jimmy, thanks for the reply. Honestly, I'm not sure that I'll continue to do any more anaerobic training, but wanted to understand my "options." I'm planning to resume my MAF training tomorrow morning. Honestly, the slow, monotonous pace just gets to me after a while. And I'm sure it gets to everyone when starting out with MAF. I can't say that I love to race, because I don't run too many of them. But, I can say that I enjoyed not worrying about the alert sounding this morning. My MAF pace is around a 12:00 minute mile, down from over 13:00 two months ago. Although I feel comfortable at my MAF pace, my body wants to go just a bit faster for a normal pace. So, holding myself back takes energy and feels weird. Don't get me wrong, I'm doing it and will continue. I have seen improvement in the 8 weeks. For example the run I did today would usually average around 168 BPM, today was 161. Again, note this is a course with some long medium grade hills. As for a goal, yes I have one. My first marathon is May 4th, 2008 - The Flying Pig. I'm really ready to begin training with my team again, and tackling the marathon. I just hope I can get down to an 11:30 or so soon so that someone on my team will stay with me. But, I'm sure they will. Thanks for the info!


        Slow-smooth-fast

          keep it up until it levels out and you are not getting any faster. I am in my 4th week, and I have gone from 9:30 pace to just over 8m/mile pace. I will keep it going until i stop seeing improvements.

          "I've been following Eddy's improvement over the last two years on this site, and it's been pretty dang solid. Sure the weekly mileage has been up and down, but over the long haul he's getting out the door and has turned himself into quite a runner. He's only now just figuring out his potential. Consistency in running is measured in years, not weeks. And over the last couple of years, Eddy's made great strides" Jeff 14 Jan 2009

          jimmyb


            keep it up until it levels out and you are not getting any faster. I am in my 4th week, and I have gone from 9:30 pace to just over 8m/mile pace. I will keep it going until i stop seeing improvements.
            Definitely a good recommendation. Mark Allen and Maffetone both mention this.

            Log    PRs

            jimmyb


              Jimmy, thanks for the reply. Honestly, I'm not sure that I'll continue to do any more anaerobic training, but wanted to understand my "options." I'm planning to resume my MAF training tomorrow morning. Honestly, the slow, monotonous pace just gets to me after a while. And I'm sure it gets to everyone when starting out with MAF. I can't say that I love to race, because I don't run too many of them. But, I can say that I enjoyed not worrying about the alert sounding this morning. My MAF pace is around a 12:00 minute mile, down from over 13:00 two months ago. Although I feel comfortable at my MAF pace, my body wants to go just a bit faster for a normal pace. So, holding myself back takes energy and feels weird. Don't get me wrong, I'm doing it and will continue. I have seen improvement in the 8 weeks. For example the run I did today would usually average around 168 BPM, today was 161. Again, note this is a course with some long medium grade hills. As for a goal, yes I have one. My first marathon is May 4th, 2008 - The Flying Pig. I'm really ready to begin training with my team again, and tackling the marathon. I just hope I can get down to an 11:30 or so soon so that someone on my team will stay with me. But, I'm sure they will. Thanks for the info!
              Mark, I think you need to have a good whine (you get 3). Go ahead, let it out. It's okay. Cool You are on a team? Mark Allen had the same problem with his training partners. He got left in the dust day after day, and they thought he was crazy. He showed them now didn't he! Eventually he was back with them, but with a very relaxed HR. Keep going! --Jimmy

              Log    PRs

                Mark, I think you need to have a good whine (you get 3). Go ahead, let it out. It's okay. Cool You are on a team? --Jimmy
                No, I don't need (or mean to) whine. I love running with my teammates, but if I'm too slow for them and they leave me, it's not going to be too much fun. Yes, I run with a fund raising team for the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation. Very important to me since I have CF. We have a lot of fun and have a great coach. He's 68 and never run over a 4 hour marathon. Amazing. I'm really doing all of this to make it through my first full marathon in a decent time, at least for a first marathon. Thanks for the info. And, feel free to call me out if I'm whining. (I HATE it when my kids to it!)
                  Definitely a good recommendation. Mark Allen and Maffetone both mention this.
                  I was actually regressing big time for several weeks. Two weeks ago, I decided to throw in a couple faster paced miles into a run (tempo pace). Also, during my long run this past sunday, I picked up the pace a bit over the last 1.5 miles (about 1 minute slower than tempo pace). In addition, I'm trying not to stress too much about staying under MAF. The majority of my miles are still below or near MAF, so it's still low HR training. My MAF HR is 142, and I still average in the low-mid 140s. I think the stress of worrying about my HR too much during the entire run was having a negative effect. Now, I'm starting to see some dramatic improvements aver the past several runs. Up until 2-3 weeks ago, my pace slowed down to 11:30-12:30/ mile. Over the summer, It was closer to 10-10:30. My last few runs have averaged around 10:30 including the slow warm-up miles. This may not work for everyone, but it's clearly working for me right now. Could it be that the formula doesn't work out exactly right for everyone? Maybe I just needed some faster stuff?
                    This may not work for everyone, but it's clearly working for me right now. Could it be that the formula doesn't work out exactly right for everyone? Maybe I just needed some faster stuff?
                    I think I've "heard" Jesse say in the past that sometimes you do need a few faster runs to kick start the process after a basebuilding period.


                    Slow-smooth-fast

                      I think I've "heard" Jesse say in the past that sometimes you do need a few faster runs to kick start the process after a basebuilding period.
                      AFTER being the operative word. Trust me, I have go the books, I have read the forums, I have searched the internet. STAY AWAY from tempo until you have done all you can under MAF

                      "I've been following Eddy's improvement over the last two years on this site, and it's been pretty dang solid. Sure the weekly mileage has been up and down, but over the long haul he's getting out the door and has turned himself into quite a runner. He's only now just figuring out his potential. Consistency in running is measured in years, not weeks. And over the last couple of years, Eddy's made great strides" Jeff 14 Jan 2009

                      jimmyb


                        No, I don't need (or mean to) whine. I love running with my teammates, but if I'm too slow for them and they leave me, it's not going to be too much fun. Yes, I run with a fund raising team for the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation. Very important to me since I have CF. We have a lot of fun and have a great coach. He's 68 and never run over a 4 hour marathon. Amazing. I'm really doing all of this to make it through my first full marathon in a decent time, at least for a first marathon. Thanks for the info. And, feel free to call me out if I'm whining. (I HATE it when my kids to it!)
                        That's amazing you are running with CF. This training will not only help you finish your first one, but it will increase the probability that you'll stay healthy until you get there. I remember watching that PBS special where they took epeople and trained them for the marathon. Half of them were injured, and all were running way too hard, you could hear it in their breathing. So, keep going! --Jimmy

                        Log    PRs

                          That's amazing you are running with CF. This training will not only help you finish your first one, but it will increase the probability that you'll stay healthy until you get there. I remember watching that PBS special where they took epeople and trained them for the marathon. Half of them were injured, and all were running way too hard, you could hear it in their breathing. So, keep going! --Jimmy
                          Yes, I run with CF. I'll be 37 by the time I run the Pig. Funny thing is that 37 is the average age for a CF patient. Unless I get hit by a truck or my heart explodes, I'll break that. I've been very lucky with my health. My goal is to run somewhere between a 4:00 and 4:30 for my first. But, either way, I'll look to finish it and finish it strong (maybe not fast).


                          run-easy-race-hard

                            Everyone has his own "uniquities" but I believe regression comes primarily from one of two places: (1) shift from well-developed anaerobic capabilities to undeveloped and untrained aerobic capabilities or (2) loss of running economy from never running anything faster paced. It seems as though most (or at least a quorum, by some definition) will have slight pace improvements on about a weekly basis, and these are sufficient to develop running economy. Others, I believe mostly in the category of having run race-paced most every day, tend to run about the same pace every day below MAF heart rate. These folks need a different stimulation. In the worst case, this would be from something above MAF. However, too much of this will definitely interfere with the basebuilding for most people. The best place to develop the running economy and muscle memory for faster paces is through incorporating downhill segments where you pick up the pace to keep HR up at the MAF level (don't let HR sink way down). If you live in Florida or Houston, it's tough to find any downhills, so you may have to resort to treadmills that have negative incline capability, or something similar.
                            jimmyb


                              Hey Jesse! Nice to see you posting, truly making this feeeling like home. Now, I find that aerobic intervals work somewhat like the downhill runs in that you can get some faster pace turnover without going over MAF. For instance, lately I am averaging betwenn 10:30 -11:38 per mile depending on the distance. I did a set of aerobiic intervals on Sunday where my pace was 9:30-9:45 for most of the reps. That gives some stimulus. MAF tests can also be a stimulus for the same reason. CFkid, just in case you don't know what the aerobic intervals are: Warm-up for 15 minutes getting to MAF-10 by the end. Then increase speed until your HR maxes out at MAF, hold for .25 miles. Then slow down for .25 miles letting HR go down to MAF-10 again. Do 4-8 reps of this. (These can be found in Training For Endurance). I like doing these. Makes it fun, gives variety to the training. Keep going! --Jimmy

                              Log    PRs

                                Warm-up for 15 minutes getting to MAF-10 by the end. Then increase speed until your HR maxes out at MAF, hold for .25 miles. Then slow down for .25 miles letting HR go down to MAF-10 again. Do 4-8 reps of this. (These can be found in Training For Endurance).
                                Well, I wish I could do aerobic intervals, but I have a tough enough time just running and staying below MAF. I can do it for about 10 miles, but I am right at 12:00/mile. So, at this point, to do a MAF-10 I'd probably be walking. This statement alone probably answers my original question. I probably shouldn't be throwing any anaerobic training in just yet. But, I don't think going over MAF every few weeks will kill the base building. In fact, it appears to help my MAF Pace. Now, I wish I could try that out, but I ended up with a chest cold after my last run (damn kids). So, no running for me for a few more days.
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