Low HR Training

Maffetone Method Support Thread (Read 3201 times)

BeeRunB


     

     

    you are right they may not be necessary. I just remember formationflier insisting that very slow runners should add downhills before they go totally mad that progress is so slow. his argument made a lot of sense to me. (points: 1) you get some turnover in so your efficiency doesn't rut which helps with progress 2) you can enjoy some workout variability and this helps with improvement 3) progress overall may be faster this way, which can help mentally.)

     

    I understand and am well aware of all that, C. I was responding to Jan and what she was saying about running on the treadmill helping to keep her heart rate more steady and under control. Just giving her some of what I know from my experience with the method. I've seen just as much progress in aerobic speed on a tm set 0-1% as when I've tried downhill intervals.

     

    It would be nice to have a tm that goes down as well as up, though. One thing for sure, 12 week solely on the TM with no downhills will leave your quads sore after the first decent outdoor run. Goes away quickly, though.

     

    --Jimmy

     

     

     

     

    BeeRunB


      Below MAF treadmill run yesterday. 6.65 miles average pace 10:17 mpm. HR average 136.

       

      I am using an older Garmin 301 with HR monitor and have also been running inside on the treadmill alot lately as its just been too cold with poor footing here these days. I always wear my HR monitor, but had been forgetting it from time to time when I went to the YMCA to run on the treadmill. The treadmills have a HR monitor built in, so I would run about a half mile, then grab hold of the monitor and check my HR. I had began to notice that my HR at the pace I was running seemed lower then usual. I decided to start checking my 301 HR readings with the fitness equipments reading and found that no matter which treadmill at the YMCA I was using, my HR would be about 3-4 beats lower then what my 301 was reading.

       

      I bought my wife a Garmin FR60 with HR monitor and foot pod for Christmas this year. I wanted to try it out because I like the idea of having the foot pod calculating my distance ran on the treadmill and recording splits, as well as tracking my run cadence data. I have used it at least a half a dozen times now and find that the fitness equipment and the FR60's HR readings are nearly identical.

       

      I'm seriously considering upgrading my HR monitor, or will at least let my HR rise about 3 beats and still consider myself MAFfing with a 143 verses my MAF HR of 140. The 140 is the one I was using when I started about 1.5 years ago and I have never added 5 beats for the continues exercise and improvements for that time. Any thoughts on this?

       

      I'm going to start Pfitz's 18-70 plan next week, so MAF running will limited to the recovery runs for awhile. I'm training for a HM and duathlon in late April and May. I want to go sub 1:40 at the half and figures the 18-70 plan should get me there or bury me. I'm also cross training with a three day a week swim session and cycling on the indoor trainer. I plan to use my MAF HR for most of my cycling too.

       

      Are the TM's HR receivers at the gym calibrated for Garmin? It is possible that they don't read the Garmin correctly. Then again, it could be the watch as you said. I always use my Polar on my Pacemaster (calibrated for Polars), I wear the watch. Lately, I've been running the watch and the TM receiver at the same time. They are usually  exact, but occasionally drift away from each other, within 1-2 beats.

       

      On the +5 beats. If you feel you fit item D. on this page (i know you know all about item "D", just popping the link here for beginners), give it a try. Your MAF tests will let you know if it is correct or not. If your current MAF is working for you, then at least you know where to drop back to, if +5 causes regression. Though, if you are beginning Pitzy's program, you wouldn't know if it was the intervals, tempos, his 65-78% HRR longies, or the new MAF---IF you experience aerobic regression. Hopefully, it will be improvement all the way! I think it is smart using MAF on recovery days during this training schedule. I've done his training--had fun with it--but it sure was training with a capital T (hence the Advanced in Advanced Marathoning!). I like the idea of using his 65-78% runs after the aerobic base phase (haven't recently, but did for the last Vermont City Marathon I ran in 2008), they can be quite exhilarating. Hope you have fun, too. I wish you great stamina and health all the way to race season, BT.

       

      --Jimmy

       

       

       

         

        I like the idea of using his 65-78% runs after the aerobic base phase (haven't recently, but did for the last Vermont City Marathon I ran in 2008), they can be quite exhilarating.  

         

         

        what was exhilarating about them?

         

         

        as for the TM / downhill stuff. if nothing else, running on a small-ish grade downhill definitely gives extra joy with the faster turnover of the legs Smile

        BeeRunB


           

          what was exhilarating about them?

           

           

          There is a certain exhilaration to starting at a low intensity, and moving faster and faster, like in a car. It's not the turnover, but more the experience of speed. I get the same thing during MAF base training--today as a matter of fact. I spent an entire mile in the 10:00's at MAF for the first time in awhile. A feeling of physical power. And progress brings me joy every time--a mental/spiritual payoff for sticking to it and seeing some results. In anaerobic work (above MAF) there is a point of speed where it is no longer exhilarating, as the discomfort comes in and masks any of it. Wanting to vomit your heart onto the pavement never feels good. But in a race, you gotta do what you gotta do.

           

          Keep going, C!

             

            There is a certain exhilaration to starting at a low intensity, and moving faster and faster, like in a car. It's not the turnover, but more the experience of speed. I get the same thing during MAF base training--today as a matter of fact. I spent an entire mile in the 10:00's at MAF for the first time in awhile. A feeling of physical power. And progress brings me joy every time--a mental/spiritual payoff for sticking to it and seeing some results. In anaerobic work (above MAF) there is a point of speed where it is no longer exhilarating, as the discomfort comes in and masks any of it. Wanting to vomit your heart onto the pavement never feels good. But in a race, you gotta do what you gotta do.

             

            Keep going, C!

             

            That about sums it up, Jimmy. There is nothing like a MAF run that is faster then you've ever MAFfed before.

             

            The HR monitor's on the fitness equipment doesn't read the Garmin monitor, but they will read a Polar. They all have the grab handles and thats what I use to cross reference what my 301 monitor is reading. I've though about getting a Polar, but am thinking a 305, 310 of FR60 with HR monitor and foot pod for the distance calculation would be a better option.

             

            The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

             

            2014 Goals:

             

            Stay healthy

            Enjoy life

             

              There is a certain exhilaration to starting at a low intensity, and moving faster and faster, like in a car. It's not the turnover, but more the experience of speed. I get the same thing during MAF base training--today as a matter of fact. I spent an entire mile in the 10:00's at MAF for the first time in awhile. A feeling of physical power. And progress brings me joy every time--a mental/spiritual payoff for sticking to it and seeing some results. In anaerobic work (above MAF) there is a point of speed where it is no longer exhilarating, as the discomfort comes in and masks any of it. Wanting to vomit your heart onto the pavement never feels good. But in a race, you gotta do what you gotta do.

               

              Keep going, C!

               

               

              so are you talking about MAF'ing phase and then upping the intensity of general aerobic runs a bit and running at a 78% HR? a bit confused here Smile

               

              by the way maybe I experienced just this exhilarating feeling on my previous run..I started at the usual low HR but then oh, somehow I let it go up a bit..effort still the same, and I just kept going on like that, kept -very slightly- increasing the "speed" for each loop (5 loops total) and it was truly exhilarating. Smile (I didn't go to high HR ranges, so that helped.)

               

              and whoa, congrats on the 10min/mile pace at MAF! Smile I do imagine that when (one day) I get to mid-10's or low-10's for that HR (MAF or even below it), it would be a really really great feeling. Smile

              BeeRunB


                so are you talking about MAF'ing phase and then upping the intensity of general aerobic runs a bit and running at a 78% HR? a bit confused here Smile

                 

                by the way maybe I experienced just this exhilarating feeling on my previous run..I started at the usual low HR but then oh, somehow I let it go up a bit..effort still the same, and I just kept going on like that, kept -very slightly- increasing the "speed" for each loop (5 loops total) and it was truly exhilarating. Smile (I didn't go to high HR ranges, so that helped.)

                 

                and whoa, congrats on the 10min/mile pace at MAF! Smile I do imagine that when (one day) I get to mid-10's or low-10's for that HR (MAF or even below it), it would be a really really great feeling. Smile

                 

                Thank you, C! Cool

                 

                When, and if, all my splits go into the 10:00's, I'm going to have a party.

                Reread your post prior to my post, then reread my reply again. It's clear what I meant. Work harder! LOL

                Gotta get some sleep!!!!

                --Jimmy

                jb944


                Chicago RnR 1/2 Marathon

                  Good job, jimmy.  I have a long way to go to get to 10:00s at MAF!  LOL.

                   

                  I am astounded by what is happening, though.  I have now done 4 runs of 3.5 miles at MAF in the last few weeks.  Here are the stats:

                   

                  Dist          Time      Pace    Avg  Max  Date

                  3.5 mi   1:00:26   17:14   123   145   1/11

                  3.5 mi   1:00:15   17:13   127   148   1/13

                  3.5 mi   1:00:03   17:10   124   140   1/18

                  3.5 mi   58:20      16:40   122   131   1/25

                   

                  Obviously I have a long way to go, but something is definitely working - even in this short period of time.   The average is showing up a little low, since it includes a warmup and cooldown - most of the time I am between 124 and 128 (MAF = 127).  

                   

                  And I haven't had to use any of my whines yet!  LOL.

                    1 Mile MAF Test:  10:54 at HR=133

                     

                    I am 51 years old, so based on that I normally would use HR=129 as my MAF HR.  But, 3 years ago I started using HR=132, and I read that you could keep this for a few years, if you are progressing.  So, I have been using HR=132 all along. 

                     

                    I could possibly use a higher HR if I added 5 beats to HR=129, because I have had 3 years of being injury free and progressing.  That would allow me to run at HR=134.  That is tempting to change to. 

                     

                    My first two years I really stuck to staying at MAF during my runs.  Last year I started running more in the mid 130s and low 140s for my "easy" runs.  But, for recovery days, I had no choice but to run at or below MAF, because that is all my body liked during recovery.  I think my first two years have laid a pretty good aerobic foundation for going a little above MAF now.  I am still debating how I will do my base phase soon.

                     

                    I did a little experiment.  For the past 5 weeks, I have only run an average of about 5 miles per week.  This is my offseason anyway, so I was curious what would happen to my MAF pace.  My MAF pace has gone from the low 10s to the low 11s now.  This was only a one mile test at and HR slightly above my MAF HR.  My pace continued to decay a lot after 1 mile, so that is why I would say my actual MAF pace in now in the low 11s.  It was interesting to see how fast you can lose aerobic fitness.  But, I am not concerned because I believe it will come back just as quickly once I get mileage up again.  Based on all this, it does seem that MAF pace is directly related to mileage:  In my case

                     

                    5 miles per week:   low 11s

                    20-25 miles per week:  low 10s

                     

                    I am betting another jump in mileage gets it into the 9s.  But, that kind of jump would be a lot for me.  The highest weekly mileage that I have been able to do has been about 25 miles per week.

                     

                    Just to add one more thing:  3 years ago, at a mileage of about 15 miles per week, my MAF pace was in the high 11s, so I definitely feel that I have had some aerobic improvement over the past 3 years.  It is really hard to compare sometimes, because it is like comparing apples to oranges, so that is why I was including what the mileage is too.  Just to compare apples to apples.  Low 11s now on 5 miles per week compared to high 11s on about 15 miles per week 3 years ago definitely shows some long term improvement.  It also shows that this kind of improvement is measured over a long time.  You can get quick improvement just by increasing miles, but you can also get long term improvement over time for the same load.

                    jb944


                    Chicago RnR 1/2 Marathon


                      I am betting another jump in mileage gets it into the 9s.  But, that kind of jump would be a lot for me.  The highest weekly mileage that I have been able to do has been about 25 miles per week.

                      I am very curious to see what increased mileage will bring.  I will go just over 20 miles this week and have mapped out a plan to increase no more than 10% per week going forward (and cut back every 4th week). 

                      BeeRunB


                        Good job, jimmy.  I have a long way to go to get to 10:00s at MAF!  LOL.

                         

                        I am astounded by what is happening, though.  I have now done 4 runs of 3.5 miles at MAF in the last few weeks.  Here are the stats:

                         

                        Dist          Time      Pace    Avg  Max  Date

                        3.5 mi   1:00:26   17:14   123   145   1/11

                        3.5 mi   1:00:15   17:13   127   148   1/13

                        3.5 mi   1:00:03   17:10   124   140   1/18

                        3.5 mi   58:20      16:40   122   131   1/25

                         

                        Obviously I have a long way to go, but something is definitely working - even in this short period of time.   The average is showing up a little low, since it includes a warmup and cooldown - most of the time I am between 124 and 128 (MAF = 127).  

                         

                        And I haven't had to use any of my whines yet!  LOL.

                         

                        Looking good, Jan. Starting to improve. As you go forth, building your volume, eventually you will see

                        a nice leap forward. The body always does things in its own time, and in its own non-linear way.

                        Feeling good?

                        --Jimmy

                        BeeRunB


                          1 Mile MAF Test:  10:54 at HR=133

                           

                          I am 51 years old, so based on that I normally would use HR=129 as my MAF HR.  But, 3 years ago I started using HR=132, and I read that you could keep this for a few years, if you are progressing.  So, I have been using HR=132 all along. 

                           

                          I could possibly use a higher HR if I added 5 beats to HR=129, because I have had 3 years of being injury free and progressing.  That would allow me to run at HR=134.  That is tempting to change to. 

                           

                          My first two years I really stuck to staying at MAF during my runs.  Last year I started running more in the mid 130s and low 140s for my "easy" runs.  But, for recovery days, I had no choice but to run at or below MAF, because that is all my body liked during recovery.  I think my first two years have laid a pretty good aerobic foundation for going a little above MAF now.  I am still debating how I will do my base phase soon.

                           

                          I did a little experiment.  For the past 5 weeks, I have only run an average of about 5 miles per week.  This is my offseason anyway, so I was curious what would happen to my MAF pace.  My MAF pace has gone from the low 10s to the low 11s now.  This was only a one mile test at and HR slightly above my MAF HR.  My pace continued to decay a lot after 1 mile, so that is why I would say my actual MAF pace in now in the low 11s.  It was interesting to see how fast you can lose aerobic fitness.  But, I am not concerned because I believe it will come back just as quickly once I get mileage up again.  Based on all this, it does seem that MAF pace is directly related to mileage:  In my case

                           

                          5 miles per week:   low 11s

                          20-25 miles per week:  low 10s

                           

                          I am betting another jump in mileage gets it into the 9s.  But, that kind of jump would be a lot for me.  The highest weekly mileage that I have been able to do has been about 25 miles per week.

                           

                          Just to add one more thing:  3 years ago, at a mileage of about 15 miles per week, my MAF pace was in the high 11s, so I definitely feel that I have had some aerobic improvement over the past 3 years.  It is really hard to compare sometimes, because it is like comparing apples to oranges, so that is why I was including what the mileage is too.  Just to compare apples to apples.  Low 11s now on 5 miles per week compared to high 11s on about 15 miles per week 3 years ago definitely shows some long term improvement.  It also shows that this kind of improvement is measured over a long time.  You can get quick improvement just by increasing miles, but you can also get long term improvement over time for the same load.

                           

                          Great post, Run.

                           

                          Your aerobic fitness will most definitely regress after a five weeks of rest. And it will also bounce back if your house is in order, so-to-speak, if stress levels remain normal, you don't lock yourself in the basement every night and eat a party sized bag of Kit Kats, and don't push the volume too quickly. Although, in terms of volume, sometimes throwing all caution to the wind and just going to a high level can work, but it does increase the risk of boo-boos and OT.

                           

                          I agree that you can get improvement with the same load over time. If you ran 8 hours every week at MAF,  you might start out covering 40 miles, but end up running 50+ in the same time at the same HR within e.g. 6 months. Depending on how much time you have to devote to training (whether you're a runner or a triathlete), you can keep trying to push the volume, backing off if your tests begin to regress. That's always the key: the MAF test. 

                           

                          Keep us posted on your base period coming up and what happens, Run.

                           

                          --JImmy

                          jb944


                          Chicago RnR 1/2 Marathon

                            Looking good, Jan. Starting to improve. As you go forth, building your volume, eventually you will see

                            a nice leap forward. The body always does things in its own time, and in its own non-linear way.

                            Feeling good?

                            --Jimmy

                            Thanks.  I feel great! 

                             

                            This week I'm going to add in some cycling in the evening (my old road bike is on a trainer in the basement).  I need to get started if we are doing a biking vacation this year!  Working up some miles at MAF on the bike will help when the weather clears and I can finally hit the road!

                              jb944: congrats on the improvement!! Smile

                               

                              run48: are you saying you never ran more than 25mpw? your PR's are really awesome considering this low mileage! Smile if you were MAF'ing I'm sure you could bring your mileage much much higher and see more improvement..

                               

                              by the way... I ran slow enough today (for the first 30mins anyway) that it can be considered a MAF test, haha. so just to add my info to this thread, the first mile of it at MAF HR after fully warming up(which was for a bit more than a mile) was 10:54. don't know about second mile because I let the HR drift.

                              ...run48, I find it pretty funny that it's the exact same number...by the second. Smile (you are a lot better runner though...I think my pace would go pretty bad on 5mpw!)

                                run48: are you saying you never ran more than 25mpw?  

                                 

                                Thanks Cmon2, I had a week here or there where I ran 30 miles.  But, I have never averaged over 25 miles per week.  I had only one month last year where I exceeded 100 miles.  But, for that mileage, I think I ran it optimally.  I always included an 8 mile long run.  I think the long run is the most important run of the week.  I am a big believer in that.  I always feel I gain the most fitness when I get a long run in, and I always feel like I lost the most fitness when I missed a week with a long run.

                                 

                                Could I increase my miles?  It is hard for me to imagine that.  If I ran 5 miles per day for 7 days a week, I am pretty sure I could tolerate that.  That would give me 35 mile per week.  But, my longest run would only be 5 miles.  Perhaps that is OK in a MAF base phase?  Or maybe 6 miles per day 6 days per week, I could possibly tolerate that too?

                                 

                                I have a friend who is 57 years old.  I have known him for 30 years.  About 15 years ago, he took up running.  Only for health reasons.  He has consistantly run 3 miles per day, 6 or 7 days per week for those 15 years.  He has never had a desire to race.  He has always run those 3 miles at about 10 minutes per mile.  When we run together, I notice that at a 10 minute pace, I gasp for air.  I am still conversational, but I sometimes have to suck in some air to finish a sentence.  He does not gasp for air at all.  It is completely easy for him.  He clearly has better aerobic fitness than I and I definitely believe he gained it from just being so consistant.  He does not do long runs.  He does not do tempo runs.  He does not use a HR monitor.  He does not do intervals.  It drives me a little crazy.  I am always trying to get him into racing, but he simply is not interested.  I am always talking about my training, my races, and he is interested in hearing about it.  But, he is not interested in changing what he is doing.  I have just found this to be so fascinating.  My motivation is clearly different from his.  I also find it so interesting how simple his training is and how beneficial it is for him.

                                 

                                So, that is why I kind of wondered whether it really matters if one run is long, and another is medium, and mixing an easy days with hard days, etc. to gain the kind or aerobic fitness that he gained and that you do gain with consistan MAF paced running.