I was thinking that training at LHR/MAF trains/develops the Slow Twitch muscle  fibers.

And running at non-LHR trains the Fast Twitch.

 

Is that true?

 

I've been wondering, because on runs where HR may blip or go above MAF because of being tired, tummy full, humid, etc., if we are still running rather slowly and HR raises due to other factors, does that necessarily mean our leg muscles are switching over to using Fast Twitch muscle cells?

 

I am wondering because when I stop to walk, my HR rises (to aid venous return maybe?)

When I drink my water, my HR rises (from holding breath or ? ).

If I just ate a big meal and the go out to run (yeah, bleh) my HR rises.

Humidity will make my HR rise too.

On those four examples there, does that mean my leg muscles are switching over to Fast Twitch muscle fiber use?

Or are they still using Slow Twitch but my HR is rising also?

Is it possible to run 'easy' but have your HR go above MAF?

 

I've been under the impression that when HR rises it's because the muscle cells are switching to/using Fast Twitch muscle cells, such as when I sprint.

Now I'm thinking maybe that's not exactly the case, because of the four last examples and other circumstances I've encountered.

 

Also, at the end of a harder run, I can be walking at MAF.  Would that be Fast Twitch muscle fibers?

 

Is it possible to be using Slow Twitch cells and have your HR rise a bit?  MAF+10 ? MAF +15 ?

 

Or LHR/MAF not really about the Slow Twitch?

 

......I"m still learning.........and finding I understand less and less the more I learn....

 

Type 1 fibers, which are aerobic and sometimes called red or slow twitch, contain mitochondria, which contains myoglobin. It is in the mitochondria where energy is generated using oxygen. As mitochondria grows and developes, so does the ability to process oxygen for energy. It is in the red fiber where fat-burning takes place. Blood vessels to the fibers also increase with proper development.

 

Type 2 fibers, are spit into two types, the first is a combination of aerobic and anaerobic, and can possibly be trained to lean more toward aerobic. The second is all anaerobic.

 

The MAF program is based on an RQ test that measures the ratio of fat to sugar at rest and during exercise. This is correlated to heart rate.

 

As you start walking, you will recruit small aerobic fibers that are used for walking, and you will be burning mostly fat. Walking is almost purely aerobic. As you start to run slowly, you will start to use larger aerobic Type 1 fibers. You start to burn a little more glycogen (sugar) in order to process the fat. As your level of intensity increases you will eventually reach a point where you start to recruit the anaerobic fibers and begin to burn more glycogen. At some point you will reach a ratio of 50/50 fat to sugar ration. The MAF is at a point just below this. The 180 formula was derived from this. As you move higher in intensity you start to recruit more anaerobic fibers, you start to burn more glycogen and less fat. At some point you will reach your anaerobic threshold where you are using exclusively anaerobic fibers, and are burning 100% glycogen. At that point you won't last much longer.

 

The MAF formula with the adjustments are to keep you where you are burning more fat than sugar. Someone who is not fit, has not done much exercise, or has overtrained and injured him or herself normally has a 50/50 point at a lower HR. Fit people will have the 50/50 at a higher HR. Thus the reasons for the 5-10 beat adjustments in the formula. Age comes into play.

 

When you work out at your MAF, or below, if you've been honest and taken the proper adjustments, you will be training your type 1 and type 2 (1st kind where they are aerobic/anaerobic, and can be trained to be more one than the other) and burning more fat than sugar. Normally, if you have not trained this way, it will slow you odwwn, as the red fibers aren't very developed. Your body can't process the oxygen using fat. As they develop,  your body will learn to use the fat, and you will process more and more oxygen. You will gain aerobic speed.

 

In the base period, Maffetone says that it is very important not to exceed your MAF A blip here and there that you get down right away won't hurt. It's running continuously above the MAF. He's seen people try running 2-3 beats over during the base period, and their aerobic system progress start to stall. They have started to train at a HR where they are burning more sugar than fat. In Maffetone's definitions, you are now training anaerobically (burning sugar).

 

This does not mean you can never run above MAF. That comes after you have built your base. If you are fairly fit, not overtrained, and have a lot of eexperience racing, a 12-16 week base period is usually enough to see 1-2 minutes of progress in your MAF tests. If you are a beginner, overtrained, coming off an injury, it could take much longer to see the same gains. Walking at your MAF will train the proper aerobiic fibers, not just the small walking fibers. At some point, you won't be able to walk fast enough to stay at your MAF, unless you switch to running or race-walking. This development as a walker (at MAF) makes a fine base for running. If you are a beginner, and are running and constantly exceeding MAF, you risk not developing your aerobic system and possibly overtrianing and injury. A lot of beginnners injure themselves in the first year, and give it up.

 

There's a reason Mark Allen callls the base phase the "patience phase." It takes a boatload of patience to give your body the time it needs to develop the aerobic system. Some get it done in the 12-16 weeks, others might take 6 months to a year, maybe longer.

 

 In terms of heat an humidity affecting your HR. It still counts. Yoou will naturally run a little slower as the heat and humidity rises. Most people will not run their best marathon in 80 degrees. As the temps start to exceed 60-65 degress, your performance will start to diminish. Using a HR monitor in training will help you stay aerobic. If you stay in yoour MAF zone you will insure that you are actually running the same effort as on a colder day.  Works the same for anaerobic work. If you normally do intervals at 95% MHR, then the HRM will help you to not exceed the 95%, and even though you are slower than on a cold day, you are getting the same workout. The same fibers are being developed.

 

On a personal note, I've been in a base period since the beginning of the year. In the past (2005, 2006, etc.), I was fit and healthy enough to keep my base periods to 12-16 weeks. I would see the 1--2 minutes of progress, then I would start to bring in somme higher HR work. This resulted in some nice improvement and some nice PR's at all distances. By the end of last fall, I was overtrained, due to many factors. I came into this base period with a very diminished aerobiic system. I had to run slower than I ever had before. The base phase hasn't gone as I thought  it would, as unforseen ife events have again derailed my plans. Although, I've been smart enough this time to cut back on total time during the real stressful periods. I managed to knock almost a few minuutes off my MAF tests. 2-3 weeks ago, the daily temps here in Atlanta started to reach 90º. I've never lived in constant 90º weather and it took it's toll. So last week  I started to cut down. Took an extra days rest. Started using a HR plan the moves me gradually from MAF-10 to MAF, instead of allowing my HR to get to MAF earlier in the run (this lessons the stress). Today, I started to see a turnaround towards the better.

 

It's tried my patience at times. I found myself feeling disappointed a few times during this base period, during what I perceived as setbacks. Somehow, I have managed to stick to my plan. I won't consider leaving the base phase until my MAF test paces get in the 9:00 range. Even then, I might take it furthur. We'll see. I have this long range view. What  keeps me interested is the process of scheduling, monitoring HR, gathering data, racing against past training performances, feeling joy at little improvements, and sharing on this forum.

 

I suggest you read Training For Endurance if you can get a copy. High Performanc Heart is good as well.

 

Keep going!

 

--Jimmy

 

 

Jimmyb

 

This does not mean you can never run above MAF. That comes after you have built your base. If you are fairly fit, not overtrained, and have a lot of eexperience racing, a 12-16 week base period is usually enough to see 1-2 minutes of progress in your MAF tests. If you are a beginner, overtrained, coming off an injury, it could take much longer to see the same gains. Walking at your MAF will train the proper aerobiic fibers, not just the small walking fibers. At some point, you won't be able to walk fast enough to stay at your MAF, unless you switch to running or race-walking. This development as a walker (at MAF) makes a fine base for running. If you are a beginner, and are running and constantly exceeding MAF, you risk not developing your aerobic system and possibly overtrianing and injury. A lot of beginnners injure themselves in the first year, and give it up.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks

 FrancesRe,

 

One of the best books on "sports medicine" (how the body works, how the body responds to different types of training, etc) is LORE OF RUNNING, 4th Edition, by Tim Noakes, MD.    He is Health Professor of Exercise and Sports Science at the University of Cape Town (Africa) and also holds a DSc degree.  He has conducted hundreds and hundreds of laboratory studies on athletes, and is held in very high regard for his writings in professional journals.

 

LORE OF RUNNING, 4th Edition, is a long term read at 931 pages ... but answers just about any "why" or "how" question you could ask relating to running and training.  And it is surprisingly easy to read, given the many hard-to-pronounce medical (and research) terms.  And yes, Tim Noakes is a full- and ultra-marathon runner.

Hi Northernman,

 

I experienced that when I was standing around waiting for my race to start.  I had on my HR monitor and just watched my HR rise.  I was getting into my MAF zone just by standing there, because of the adreniline I was producing, in anticipation of the start of the race.

 

And, Jimmy,

 

Thanks for that nice summary about the types of muscle fiber, etc.  Reading about this made me recall a question I have wondered about.  I wonder if some people respond better to MAF training than others because they simply have a much higher percent of Slow Twitch Fiber Muscle?

 

It seems like some people plateau earlier than others with MAF training, and I wonder if it is because of their unique physiological makeup (like muscle type percentages).  The advice I have read is once you plateau (have squeezed out as much toothpaste from the bottom as possible), you will have to move to higher paces to see more improvement, and that you can actually get more improvement of your MAF pace, running above MAF pace.

 

Just as some benefit from the MAF training more than others, I think some benefit more from above MAF training than others.

 

On a personal note, I think I fall into the camp of not having a high percent of endurance muscle type.  When I was younger, I think my strength was more the shorter to middle distance type of running.  When I came across the MAF concept, I knew that was the piece I was missing.  I have always heard that you should work hardest on your weaknesses, not your strengths, so I feel that the MAF concept was the perfect prescription for me.

 

I am still a long way from ever running a marathon, so I am continually impressed with the those who have, and really enjoy reading about it here, in this forum, about how people do it.  Maybe someday...

It sounds like you know enough to be dangerous 

        l

 

That's exactly what I am starting to feel like.

Thank you, everyone, for your replies.

 

I'm going to re-read them and think about all your helpful comments for a while

 

Jesse did the program properly, and worked his ass off. He built his volume. He also cross-trained with biking and swimming. I've been following these LHR forums for a bunch of years, and what I've seen is that those who stick to it always get there and progress. It takes beginners longer. It takes overtrained people longer. Experienced runners will respond more quickly, but if they come into it injured and overtrained, it's slower. Their body needs time to heal and rebalance. Sometimes some people just aren't doing enough, not enough load, and it takes them longer.

 

Jesse will tell you how slow he was in the beginnning. It didn't take right away, it took a lot of dilligence. Maffetone is saying it doesn't matter, just stick to it and you'll become a better endurance athlete. My experience also with all these years watching people come and go, is that most bag it before they ever get there. Usually it is those who come in injured and overtrained. They'll do it, feel better, but get itchy to run faster, and that's what they go do. Some return to give it another try because they start to get injured and overtrained again, then they repeat the same behavior. I don't think it's a fiber thing, it's a patience thing. And I understand, believe me. When you love racing and feeling that nice fast pace, which I do, it is not easy sometimes to give your body the time it needs. This program can be very hard mentally.

 

--Jimmy

 

 

Hi Jimmy,

 

The reason I was wondering about the questions I posed was that I am always trying to relate my personal experience with what I read about here.  So, here is a more direct question about my training, that I would be very interested in your thoughts about (or anybody elses).

 

In the middle of December, when I finished my last race of the Fall season, I started running MAF pace or below for the next 3 months.  At the end of the Fall Season, my MAF pace actually improved a little, even though I was doing a lot of racing.  My MAF pace was about the mid 10s at a HR of 132.

 

So, I ran about 15 miles per week for the next 13 straight weeks and at the end of that 13 weeks my MAF pace was exactly the same.  I did MAF tests all along, and each one was about the same.  Yet, although my MAF pace never really improved, I still felt that this base period was very beneficial.  I felt it gave my body a rest.  And it allowed me to not lose any MAF pace that I had gained from the previous year.  So, that is how I looked at it.

 

So, this is an example of where I feel I have plateaued.  I read that you do MAF training until you plateau, and then you can go do higher paces and possibly see furhter improvement in MAF pace.  So, I have been doing that this spring.  I have raced a lot and have done tempo runs, etc.  and my MAF pace may have slightly improved, but it is still the same.

 

My MAF pace has probably been about the same for the last nine months.

 

So, is the simple answer that I need to increase miles to see any more MAF pace improvement?  That is what I have been assuming, but I just do not want to leave any stone unturned.  Or do you think I just needed to give it more of a chance and did the base longer?  Or perhaps, it is possible I am not running far enough below MAF?

 

Thanks