Low HR Training

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New to this forum with questions... (Read 759 times)

    Hello everyone - I'm Bill; joined the LHR group just a few days ago. I'll give you some background, and then some questions I have about this for you much more experienced people out there. Started running over 3 years ago at 58, MHR 180, RHR 35, currently 29 mpw. I'm planning to increase mileage by one mile per week until I get to 40-50 mpw. I was always in good shape and active, despite having smoked for a very l-o-n-g time (finally quit last year). I consider myself still in a base-building phase since Sept., and from what I've read lately for LHR, my runs should be no more than 126-130 bpm - my last 2 runs have been my first ones at LHR - it wasn't too hard to slow from a normal pace of 11:00 or 12:00, to 13:00 min/miles!! And my average HR was 131 & 129. In the past on the very few ocaissions I wore a monitor during long or easy runs, I seem to recall anything up to 160 HR, and 174 MHR during speedwork. What's troubling to me is that my race times have always been roughly the same with no improvement to speak of - stagnant. Also, I can't seem to get past 10-11 mile long runs without a lot of difficulty and walk/running after that distance. My breathing feels very good, but my legs always crap out - like they need more O2 and/or strengthening. I recently tried the FIRST program for a short time, but found the intervals/repeats wayyy too fast for me (I enjoy a hard workout - just don't want to kill myself). Because of all this, I have re-scheduled 2 marathons in Feb. and Mar. to half-marathons. And decided that LHR training might suit me. - So, am I a good LHR candidate (or is almost anyone)? - I'm guessing that I need to work a LOT more on aerobic conditioning before any more anerobic stuff. - Also, I've read that racing and speedwork are detrimental to the benefits of LHR training - when or how often can one do this without harm? - I had developed a 176-184 stride rate over the last few months, but should that be continued with LHR - it seemed like it would be hard to do on my 2 LHR runs and I didn't really try it. Hope this isn't too many questions, but I'm definitely "an experiment of one"!! Thanks for any HELP!

    "I can do 440 in 220"    Half Fanatic #846    "90% of running is half mental"    If I collapse, please pause my Garmin

     


    run-easy-race-hard

      Hey Bill - It seems as though you would be a good candidate (but actually, it's not obvious from what you have provided, other than your issue on long runs). Indeed, speedwork can be a hindrance during basebuilding phase. If you haven't read it yet, you should check out the FAQ: http://spaces.msn.com/members/formationflier/ Good luck!


      HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

        I'm also new with questions. I posted in a different thread, but I think it kinda got lost in the collection of cool running refugee greetings. Hello, I'm not a cool running graduate or refugee, and I've not done HR-monitored running, but I've been recently reading about benefits of running lots of easy runs, and decided to try to run a lot, and then I stumbled into reading about this low-HR stuff. #1) I suppose I really need a HR monitor to do low-HR running conveniently, right? I don't fancy holding my fingers on my pulse and counting when I'm standing much, and I've never tried it running, but I bet it wouldn't be very convenient. #2) I've only skimmed a few intro articles, so this is coming from great ignorance, as may be obvious, but, if a person goes out and runs 40minutes (or 2 hours, or whatever), I thought that meant it had to use aerobic energy production, because human anaerobic energy systems aren't sustainable anywhere near that long. So, how can running too fast for 40minutes be exercising anaerobic pathways? #3) Do I need a different fanny pack for low-HR, and are there special contents it should have for low-HR? Eg, a special lightweight nylon rope to be pulled out of crevasses without pushing the HR too high? or special lightweight crampons that won't get the HR too high?

        It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

        jimmyb


          Hi Bil, First off, congratulations on quitting smoking. Anyone can be a candidate for Maffetone training. I rarely call it low-HRtraining because the full program includes anaerobic work. Though the majority of the miles will always be at low-HR's. I suggest that you read Training For Endurance if you can get you hands on a copy. High Performance Heart is good, and The Maffetone Method is good as well. It's all about developing your aerobic system, which in Maffetone's terms means using more and more fat as your fuel source. The underlying rock of the program is managing stress, physical and mental, and maintaining health as you develop the system. Basically, you run at 180-age and below for at least 12 weeks. Though more is suggested if your system is completely shot or underdeveloped. The main suggestion doing base work as long as you need until a plateau is reached. Personally, I am currently 6 months into an 8-10 month base period. Then after the base period you can add anaerobic work. Once a week would be fine, and 4-10 weeks of that is enough. 4 for the more Newbee-ish, and 10 for the more elite. Though he found even some of his elites didn't need ten weeks. He found that you really only need to go as high as 90% MHR for no more than 40 minutes to get the same benefits as those mind-numbing interval sessions that people do at 95% or higher. You get the same benefits, with much less stress. After a short anaerobic phase, do a racing season, then follow that with a shorter base phase of 8-12 weeks, then do another race season. Keeping all your miles between races at MAF or below. Always, keeping tabs on your MAF tests or aerobic runs that you always do the same. This will help to determine how your aerobic system is maintaining during these race periods. A s far as stride rate, just run naturally, That 180 stride (Jack daniels) is based on elite runners who have very long, strong strides. I find that my stride gets faster as I get faster. It only gets so long, so I'm going at 190+ when I'm doing a 5k, and 170ish when running sub 10:00. I just go naturally. Just as I am sure many elites do. If you work you aerobic system exclusively, build your time on feet, and get faster that way, your race times will get faster. Aerobic speed is a beautiful thing. Keep going, Bill. --Jimmy

          Log    PRs

            Thanks Jimmy! I have ordered Maffetone's Endurance Training, and I'm now only on week 2 of LHRT. But I'm keeping tabs on my data for comparison purposes later - say from now for the next few months (until I plateau). My only question now is, how should I run a 1/2 marathon I have planned on Feb. 3 (& another on Mar. 1) if I'm doing only LHRT? Is it okay to race any during base? a. go for the best time possible b. use it merely as a LHR training run (or MAF +10 or 15...) c. run the first part LHR, & the last portion anaerobic d. plan a racing season after base-building e. run it at say, 80% of MHR? (You indicated that Maffetone's full program includes some anaerobic work, but I'm guessing that's much later after the aerobic base-building). Any advice is appreciated!

            "I can do 440 in 220"    Half Fanatic #846    "90% of running is half mental"    If I collapse, please pause my Garmin

             

            jimmyb


              Thanks Jimmy! I have ordered Maffetone's Endurance Training, and I'm now only on week 2 of LHRT. But I'm keeping tabs on my data for comparison purposes later - say from now for the next few months (until I plateau). My only question now is, how should I run a 1/2 marathon I have planned on Feb. 3 (& another on Mar. 1) if I'm doing only LHRT? Is it okay to race any during base? a. go for the best time possible b. use it merely as a LHR training run (or MAF +10 or 15...) c. run the first part LHR, & the last portion anaerobic d. plan a racing season after base-building e. run it at say, 80% of MHR? (You indicated that Maffetone's full program includes some anaerobic work, but I'm guessing that's much later after the aerobic base-building). Any advice is appreciated!
              Maffetone includes anaerobic work after the pure base phase. It's purely up to you and what you want with your life and your precious time. If racing these half-marathons all-out are really important to you,then by all means do them all-out and with great gusto and joy. In a way, it's a risk to commit a 12-16 weeks or more to building the aerobic system this way. You never know when your life will end, and you might end up training your way until the end, instead of racing. That being said about our existential situation, you might live a long time, which means there could be lots of half marathons and marathons in the future. So, it's all a risk-reward choice for you. I can't imagine some of the runners I know ever giving up racing for one week, let alone 12. Still they would probably benefit from MAF training in between the races, as it would reduce some of the overall stress, and keep their aerobic fibers in better shape. Running the half-marathons all-out willl put you in the anaerobic phase of the training. The only effect I can be sure of is that your legs will take a slight pounding, and you will need ample recovery time. At least a week of complete rest days mixed with very low mileage. The other option is to run the half-marathons (if you've already paid for them) as MAF long runs and do them to be social. I do that during my base phase. Run a race socially, just to hang with my club members (RIRR). All depends how important committing to the base phase is to you vs. how important racing all the time is, and what it is you are trying to create and achieve. Personally, I LOVE racing, and it has been tough not to race since April, but I knew a prolonged base phase is what I had to do. It is what my body needed. I know that when I get back to my racing, I'll be ready, healthy (if you will allow it running deities--I acknowledge your power to jinx) and faster than ever. If I die before I race again, I'll know I didn't leave anything in the bag--this is all geared toward reaching my potential--creating an experience of personal excellence--there is no failure in that pursuit, no loss. Keep going, Bill! --Jimmy

              Log    PRs

              jimmyb


                p.s. Where did you order Training For Endurance? They've been on back order waiting for a reprinting.

                Log    PRs

                  p.s. Where did you order Training For Endurance? They've been on back order waiting for a reprinting.
                  It was ordered from www.pccoach.com, and yes, the new 2nd printing is on backorder for about $13 compared to other sites for $47-$65 - I don't know if those are hardcover or what. The price is right, and I can wait. Besides, I read on another forum (can't recall which one) that some people had received their copies in less than a week, even tho they were "backordered" - maybe I'll get lucky, too! BTW, I'm comitted to LHRT for awhile, so I won't be treating the halfs as much more than training runs - the social MAF run sounds good to me for now. Thanks!

                  "I can do 440 in 220"    Half Fanatic #846    "90% of running is half mental"    If I collapse, please pause my Garmin

                   

                    p.s. Where did you order Training For Endurance? They've been on back order waiting for a reprinting.
                    You are right - my daughter said earlier she would order it, then yesterday advised pccoach isn't taking "pre-orders" until the reprints arrive, whenever that is - so, I'll continue to wait for a while longer...

                    "I can do 440 in 220"    Half Fanatic #846    "90% of running is half mental"    If I collapse, please pause my Garmin

                     

                      Hi, I am new to this forum and to RA and want to give LHR training a try. In fact, I may have inadvertently given it a try last winter when I did a lot of long slow runs and no speed work while trainig for the Boston Marathon. I was shocked at how dramatically my times dropped in the all (5K to HM) races after the marathon. So now, with no races planned until Easter Sunday, this seems like a good time to try this out. However, I am unclear at what heart rate I should target for training. There seem to be many methods and, at 57 in 3 wks, I think I fall out of the group that normally trains this way. The Maffetone method seems to call for training at between 123 & 128 BPM (180-57=123; plus maybe 5 b/c I have not been hurt or sick). Other methods seem to target a training heart rate at 80% of the difference between my max heart rate and resting heart rate. And this gets more uncertain on how to determine my max heart rate. I know I have clocked myself at about 180 BPM in some speed sessions in October and various age determined max rates range from 163 to 171 BPM with an 80% training rate at about 147 BPM. I remember that in April and May of 2006, I found it really hard to keep my heart rate under 140 - but - now that I have read the materials posted here, I am willing to grit it out/walk as needed to give this a real try. So, finally, what do you think I should use as a target training heart rate? I'm sure that this is an inexact science but maybe some of you have relevant experience. Oh! My goals. I want to stay healthy, continue having fun while running, be running at 65 and beyond, and maybe even improve on my 5K through HM times. Thx John John

                      John
                      www.wickedrunningclub.com
                      I run to clear my head and talk to my friends.


                      run-easy-race-hard

                        Hi, I am new to this forum and to RA and want to give LHR training a try. In fact, I may have inadvertently given it a try last winter when I did a lot of long slow runs and no speed work while trainig for the Boston Marathon. I was shocked at how dramatically my times dropped in the all (5K to HM) races after the marathon. So now, with no races planned until Easter Sunday, this seems like a good time to try this out. However, I am unclear at what heart rate I should target for training. There seem to be many methods and, at 57 in 3 wks, I think I fall out of the group that normally trains this way. The Maffetone method seems to call for training at between 123 & 128 BPM (180-57=123; plus maybe 5 b/c I have not been hurt or sick). Other methods seem to target a training heart rate at 80% of the difference between my max heart rate and resting heart rate. And this gets more uncertain on how to determine my max heart rate. I know I have clocked myself at about 180 BPM in some speed sessions in October and various age determined max rates range from 163 to 171 BPM with an 80% training rate at about 147 BPM. I remember that in April and May of 2006, I found it really hard to keep my heart rate under 140 - but - now that I have read the materials posted here, I am willing to grit it out/walk as needed to give this a real try. So, finally, what do you think I should use as a target training heart rate? I'm sure that this is an inexact science but maybe some of you have relevant experience. Oh! My goals. I want to stay healthy, continue having fun while running, be running at 65 and beyond, and maybe even improve on my 5K through HM times. Thx John John
                        I would try about 130 as a starting point and see how it feels. If it feels unbearably easy but you don't have to walk most of the time, it's probably a good limit.
                          I'm new to the LHR training myself. I finished the c25k program and started the OHR. About 2 weeks into the OHR I started developing mild achllies tendonitis. I dropped the number of runs and added indoor biking to take up the slack. Then I sprained an ankle on a trail run badly enough that I needed x-rays. No break, but no running for 6 weeks. There's still a fair amount of pain in the ankle, but not from the torn ligaments. I've obviously dinged something else there. There's the background. I decided to try the LHR approach and try to do some running barefoot (or nearly so, it being winter and all) to see if I can get through 2008 without any injuries, especially the achillles thing. My biggest question stems from something I read on formationflier's faq page: "There is some question as to what kind of progress you can make on only 10-15 miles per week. However, at that volume, you may be better off just taking it easy on most of your runs, rather than following a strict heart rate regimen." Since I'm really doing a run/walk to keep my HR below 133 (180 - 47), and I'm only going less than 3 miles per run, 3 times per week, should I be strict on the 133 number or not? I've been trying to keep my HR between 123 and 133. Is this correct? Thanks for the information! The faq is great and the answers to the questions have been really helpful, so far.
                          Have you got a flag?


                          run-easy-race-hard

                            Since I'm really doing a run/walk to keep my HR below 133 (180 - 47), and I'm only going less than 3 miles per run, 3 times per week, should I be strict on the 133 number or not? I've been trying to keep my HR between 123 and 133. Is this correct?
                            Well, it all depends on what your goals are. If you expect to see a lot of pace improvement in a reasonably short time at the low heart rates, it probably won't happen. That's what a lot of people look for, so that statement is a bit of a disclaimer. Given that it sounds like your desire is really to get back running in the safest possible way, staying below MAF will help you do that.
                              Well, it all depends on what your goals are. If you expect to see a lot of pace improvement in a reasonably short time at the low heart rates, it probably won't happen. That's what a lot of people look for, so that statement is a bit of a disclaimer. Given that it sounds like your desire is really to get back running in the safest possible way, staying below MAF will help you do that.
                              Thanks. You hit the nail on the head. Once I get a nice base and stay injury free, then I'll worry about pace. At this point, I'd just like to be able to run.
                              Have you got a flag?
                                Thanks. You hit the nail on the head. Once I get a nice base and stay injury free, then I'll worry about pace. At this point, I'd just like to be able to run.
                                Thats the overall best thing about maf training imo. Staying healthy and being able to run. I have been recently adding just a bit of speedwork in my experiment of one because I think my body needed to get use to some fast running and be able to keep my hr in race range for the hopefully many races I run in 08. My plan is to do maybe a month of speedwork to sharpen my base then back to strict maf training and see how it goes. One thing I have noticed is most people who really seem to benefit the most had some "fast" training in there past. Will let you know how it goes.
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