Low HR Training

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Do you eat on LongRuns ? (Read 1089 times)


Beginner all over again

    Do you eat on Long Runs ?

    When, how long into the LongRun?

    What exactly to you eat?

     

    ............also how long duration are the LongRuns you reference??

    Thank you!

     


    Petco Run/Walk/Wag 5k

      yes. As I found out last year  when training thru the summer for first half, I would bonk between 80-110 minutes of running. As an early morning runner I frequently only re-hydrate before running. Found during summer long runs i was important to have something, frequently half a caffeine loaded protein drink. I also started using G2 since it has some nutrition. But still about 90-110 minutes I would need a shot block or gue (both worked for me) with repeats about every 30-45 minutes to avoid bonking. Some folks can't tolerate one or both, but they worked for me.

      bob e v
      2014 goals: keep on running! Is there anything more than that?

      Complete the last 3 races in the Austin Distance Challenge, Rogue 30k, 3M Half, Austin Full

      Break the 1000 mi barrier!

      History: blessed heart attack 3/15/2008; c25k july 2008 first 5k 10/26/2008 on 62nd birthday.

        Nope

         

        long runs are slow enough to burn my fat as I still have plenty of that to fuel myself. I have been mixing up a 20oz. water bottle with HEED lately and drinking that while I run my long runs, but I'm not sure it is needed.

         

        The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

         

        2014 Goals:

         

        Stay healthy

        Enjoy life

         


        Beginner all over again

          I found out ....... I...bonk between 80-110 minutes of running. .

           

          I do a 15 minutes warmup <MAP

          and then re-set the Clock for my "running" portion.

          I seem to be able to go to about 

          :15 WU and

          :90 Run/Walk

           

          and then start getting that disoriented-loopy-wonky feeling coming on.

          I held it off to 15+100 minutes then ate  mini Clif Bar during my CoolDown... but in retrospect I'm not sure that was the wisest thing to do and maybe I should have eaten sooner

           

          I would, sure, like to be able to Not Eat if that's the LHR goal, but even <MAF I can tell start to Bonk.

          I do hydrate good-and-well on the treatmill.

           

          I have longer runs coming up so I thought I'd kind of Ask To Be Sure here what exactly the goal is.

           

          Thanks

           

            nope, I never bonk like this.. my longest run to date was around 2 and a half hours plus 10-odd mins of warmup. and that run was starting out at MAF+15 (after warmup) and ended nearly at MAF+30.

            to answer your other question, my typical long run is around 2 hours, usually at MAF.

            so, I never have any kind of bonking in training. and even in the HM race the "bonk" was just about 1) hot sunny day making me get some fever 2) going into full anaerobic mode, it was nothing to do with food/fuel, my heart rate stayed high.

            I don't really understand/know why you would need food with a MAF run, I thought one of the advantages of MAF running is you don't get hungry even in the very very long runs if you do it at MAF intensity

            however, this is probably partially individual too. as I said I ran the HM at an intensity much higher than MAF (MAF+39 average HR) and I did not need or wish any food.

            still... formationflier says in the faq that one of the results of MAF training is you don't rely on food in the long runs anymore.

            FrancesRe, a question: do you get the same food dependency if you just do a 2 hour walk?
            jimmyb


              I don't eat during almost all my long runs.  When I do them in the morning,

              my last food would have been the night before. If I do the

              run in the afternoon, if I've eaten, I wait at least 3 hours, usually 4+,

              before running. Making sure that meal prior was not high-glycemic.

              I have never bonked during a run. There was a time when I ate GU

              during every run, or drank sports drink. Then after beginning MAF,

              I went with the idea that I wanted my body to burn fat for fuel, and at the same time

              get as much glycogen depletion as possible during a MAF run.

               

              I willl usually have one long run before a marathon where I will

              use the same sports drink that will be in the race.

               

              It's important to remember that everyone's physiology is in a

              different state. One person can run at MAF and need

              nothing for 3-4 hours, and another needs some carbs

              during those first few hours. For some, it will keep you

              burning fat. Being able to train without carbs is not on

              some higher level of athleticism or health. Many elites

              take nutrition during workouts. Personally, if i ever became

              an ultra-runner and was out doing some 4+ hour runs, I would

              take nutrition.

               

              After reading about some ultra-runners using olive oil during

              training and races, I've thought about experimenting with that.

              And I haven't tied my future self's hands, as I am open to

              experimenting with nutrition at any time. If I ever find that

              it is better for me at that time to use nutrition, i will.

               

              --Jimmy

               

              Log    PRs


              Beginner all over again

                I don't really understand/know why you would need food with a MAF run....

                 

                I don't really understand either...

                 

                 

                FrancesRe, a question: do you get the same food dependency if you just do a 2 hour walk?

                 

                 

                I've never walked two hours....I really don't know

                My LR are coming up to 2:00, 2:10, 2:20, 2:30 and add 15 minutes WarmUp to that.

                I don't know why I got loopy/wonky...I think we all burn almost 50% Sugar at MAF anyway (don't we?)

                 

                 

                   

                   

                  I've never walked two hours....I really don't know

                  My LR are coming up to 2:00, 2:10, 2:20, 2:30 and add 15 minutes WarmUp to that.

                  I don't know why I got loopy/wonky...I think we all burn almost 50% Sugar at MAF anyway (don't we?)

                   

                   

                   

                  ok, I was just curious about the 2-hr walk. Smile

                   

                  50% sugar burning is really not much in 2 hours but I'm not an expert on this Smile

                     It's important to remember that everyone's physiology is in a

                    different state. One person can run at MAF and need

                    nothing for 3-4 hours, and another needs some carbs

                    during those first few hours. For some, it will keep you

                    burning fat. Being able to train without carbs is not on

                    some higher level of athleticism or health. Many elites

                    take nutrition during workouts. Personally, if i ever became

                    an ultra-runner and was out doing some 4+ hour runs, I would

                    take nutrition.

                     

                     

                     

                    why does the formationflier faq say that MAF training should eliminate your dependency of carb intake during runs?

                     

                    he said: "You will eliminate as strong of a reliance on carbs during most races, and certainly training runs."

                    as for 4+ hour runs, you need the calories because nobody can burn 100% fat during exercise so after a while everyone would run out out of the glycogen but we are not talking about ultrarunning now.

                      Question.....How many ounces of fluids are you taking in on those long runs?

                       

                      Reason for the question is I tend to eat low carb most of the time and have been on the Atkins Diet in the past. I don't follow Atkins anymore, I just try and stay away from sugar and white flour products as carbs make me fell bloated and lethargic. I know that when I eat to few carbs and am outside in the heat of summer, I get light headed and dizzy. I'm talking just outside in the heat, not even exercising. I am a construction inspector during the summer months and spend a lot of time outside in the elements with little activity.

                       

                      The lightheaded, dizziness comes from dehydration and if I remember correctly, Atkins warns you to stay hydrated during the Induction and On Going Weight Loss phases of the diet, especially as the temps rise. Maybe you are not taking in enough liquids on your long runs.

                       

                      The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                       

                      2014 Goals:

                       

                      Stay healthy

                      Enjoy life

                       

                      jimmyb


                         

                         

                        why does the formationflier faq say that MAF training should eliminate your dependency of carb intake during runs?


                          Because that is what Formationflyer (Jesse) believed from his own personal experience, and from anecdotal evidence. Stu Mittleman believed the same thing for marathon distance. Though I'm not sure either were talking about "all-out" marathons. In Mittleman's book, it didn't specify how close to LT they were running. I'm not exactly sure at this point how close to LT  Jesse ran either. Jesse wasn't a two marathon a year guy. He ran lots of them, plus ultras, and a mix of shorter races and a few tri's here and there. He ran by heart rate, and he never seemed to have a time goal--whatever he got for that heart rate, he got. Where that heart rate fell in relation to his LT or MAF--I can't say right now. The further away from LT you run, the more glycogen that gets preserved. Or the closer you run to MAF, the longer they hold out. Theoretically, you can get REAL fast at MAF. To the point where running at it for long periods can feel stressful. If you have that much aerobic speed, you can easily run a good marathon and not need a gram of carb. Whether it would be your best probable marathon, I'm not sure. Most likely, you could go way past that distance and not need hit the wall. Again, there always other factors.

                         

                         

                        Personally, I've been a two marathon a year guy, running them all-out. Heart rate averaging a little below LT, and running the span of 160 bpm to 195bpm during the race. In the 8 marathons I've run, I've always taken in carbs (after the first two, not until 40 minutes in).

                         

                        In terms of training runs, theoretically almost everyone can develop their fat-burning and aerobic fitness enough to where they don't need the carbs. I don't see any absolute proof about whether or not that is true, or if it is actually the better way to go in the first place. Perhaps,  most would do better taking in carbs at some point in a long run. I've been going on theory, and personally I seem to do okay with the sans-carb approach for my long runs, as of now.

                         

                        --Jimmy

                        Log    PRs


                        Beginner all over again

                          Well, I was prepared to take in calories during my LongRun  today, but I didn't get Wonky so I didn't

                          I did

                          Treadmill this morning, fasting,

                           

                          15-110-15

                          HR 131-133

                           

                           

                          During the two hours I drank pretty evenly spaced 3 water bottles  for a total of 1.5 Liters

                          and about six ounces with 135 calories of Endurox on the CoolDown

                           

                          This is what I usually drink too, no need for potty stops.

                           

                          I guess some days are different ?? 

                          I always carry two Gu's, a Clif bar, and Endurox fluid, so I'll just keep them in the bag just in case.

                           

                          I was encouraged by the lack of calories today though !

                           

                              Because that is what Formationflyer (Jesse) believed from his own personal experience, and from anecdotal evidence. Stu Mittleman believed the same thing for marathon distance. Though I'm not sure either were talking about "all-out" marathons. In Mittleman's book, it didn't specify how close to LT they were running. I'm not exactly sure at this point how close to LT  Jesse ran either. Jesse wasn't a two marathon a year guy. He ran lots of them, plus ultras, and a mix of shorter races and a few tri's here and there. He ran by heart rate, and he never seemed to have a time goal--whatever he got for that heart rate, he got. Where that heart rate fell in relation to his LT or MAF--I can't say right now. The further away from LT you run, the more glycogen that gets preserved. Or the closer you run to MAF, the longer they hold out. Theoretically, you can get REAL fast at MAF. To the point where running at it for long periods can feel stressful. If you have that much aerobic speed, you can easily run a good marathon and not need a gram of carb. Whether it would be your best probable marathon, I'm not sure. Most likely, you could go way past that distance and not need hit the wall. Again, there always other factors.

                             

                             

                             

                            Personally, I've been a two marathon a year guy, running them all-out. Heart rate averaging a little below LT, and running the span of 160 bpm to 195bpm during the race. In the 8 marathons I've run, I've always taken in carbs (after the first two, not until 40 minutes in).

                             

                             

                            In terms of training runs, theoretically almost everyone can develop their fat-burning and aerobic fitness enough to where they don't need the carbs. I don't see any absolute proof about whether or not that is true, or if it is actually the better way to go in the first place. Perhaps,  most would do better taking in carbs at some point in a long run. I've been going on theory, and personally I seem to do okay with the sans-carb approach for my long runs, as of now.

                             

                            --Jimmy

                             

                             

                            thanks for the detailed explanation Smile

                            so it was just from some experience of his, not based on other scientific findings?

                             

                            but I recall reading that if you have your pace right, the glycogen + fat is enough to run the marathon and adding food will not help much, you can't get much calories from it as the marathon distance is too short for that, it mostly helps mentally (brain needs carbs too). I guess the same applies to people taking them for distances less than 30K such as a half marathon. glycogen is definitely enough to run a HM without food.

                             

                            could really be a personal thing too.. for god knows what reason but I hate the idea of having to carry food to eat it during a run and luckily I don't need it either so here mind and body work in sync Smile

                             

                            as for best probable marathon, you would have to ask gebrselassie or radcliffe. Smile my guess is elites still run the marathon below LT but their LT is at a very high HR and that they don't have any real HR drift during the entire marathon after the first couple of miles because it's 99% aerobic stuff.

                              Re elites, the Hadd/Cabral thread on Letsrun.com http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2375989&page=1 included a pretty keen graph that showed the HR for a 2:40 marathoner.  It was all around the LT.   I tried to post it below (see if it works).

                               

                               

                                 

                                ...I think we all burn almost 50% Sugar at MAF anyway (don't we?)

                                 

                                 Nope.  It depends on training and (probably) individual physiology / metabolism.

                                .

                                My VO2 test says I'm burning 20% sugar (carbs: glycogen) at the tested "deflection point" which I call my "test MAF".

                                Note - this is 10 to 20 bpm higher than my "formula MAF" with the adjustments, and about 7 - 10 bpm higher than my 180 - age, where the test says I'm burning 17% carbs, 83% fat.

                                .

                                Never been lightheaded or woozy - are you hydrating enough and doing electrolyte replacement?

                                .

                                Have you read Greg McMillan's description of the 2 kinds of long runs he has his runners do?

                                .

                                PS.  No, I don't eat or take in any calories at all on long training runs these days.  In a race sport drinks and water, and in years past sport drink and water on 40+ mile training runs.  Did a 100K in 1979 on just sport drink and ice water (running in the sun, temp got to 85 F in the shade, hence the ice water.)

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