Low HR Training

"Anaerobic" Phase HRT (over MAF) Reports & Discussion (Read 6011 times)


Consistently Slow

    To get ready for P'tree  I am running at maff and at mat maff+5 for long runs. Running downhill at maff once a week. Doing a 7k Saturday to get an idea of where I am training wise.

    Run until the trail runs out.

    2013***1500 miles

    50 miler

    Race Less Train More

     

    Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

    "The Marble in The Groove"

     

    unsolicited chatter

    http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

    jimmyb


      To get ready for P'tree  I am running at maff and at mat maff+5 for long runs. Running downhill at maff once a week. Doing a 7k Saturday to get an idea of where I am training wise.

       

       

      Have a great race, Ron!  I find it interesting how people who don't normally run are out there now training for the PEachtree. Then after the race, back to their former life. Last year I was walking up a hill during cooldown at Mt. Stone, and this guy goes chugging by, out of breath. He is wearing a weighted vest and carring weights. I asked him if he was training for something, and he said "The Peachtree Road Race." I wanted to tell him the weights weren't necessary, but held my tongue. I knew the guy was on a mssion to complete the yearly ritual 10k.

       

      Part of what makes Atlanta a great place.

       

      --Jimmy

       

      Log    PRs

      C-R


        Jimmy - that 9:08 looks good. Portends well for your races.


        "He conquers who endures" - Persius
        "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

        http://ncstake.blogspot.com/

        jimmyb


          Jimmy - that 9:08 looks good. Portends well for your races.

            Thanks, Norm. It's progress, but I need to be in 7:00--land, and  MAF in 9:00-ville in order to utter the words "I'm back."

          Still, I feel happy.

           

          --Jim

          Log    PRs

            Info
            Date: 4/12/2010 12:11 PM
            Type: Tempo
            Course: Willmar
            Distance: 6 miles
            Duration: 51:57.93
            Pace: 8:40 / mile
            Equipment: Nike Air Pegasus 25 (Red)
            Weight: 200 lb
            Heart Rate: Rest: 49 / Average: 159 / Max: 175
            Misc: Quality: 10/10, Effort: 8/10
            Weather: 63° F
            Statistics: Calories: 908
            VO2 Max: 36.6

            Intervals (GPS Interval)
            Type Distance Time Total Time Pace Avg HR Max HR Notes
            Interval 1 Mi 9:51.5 9:51.5 9:52 143 152  
            Interval 1 Mi 8:48.03 18:39.53 8:49 158 164  
            Interval 1 Mi 8:30.12 27:09.65 8:31 160 164  
            Interval 1 Mi 8:24.87 35:34.52 8:25 163 167  
            Interval 1 Mi 8:22.34 43:56.86 8:23 166 173  
            Interval 1 Mi 8:01.07 51:57.93 8:02 170 175  

             

            First HM on 4/17/2010, so I decided to run a tempo run yesterday to see how it felt. I'm not sure if that was a good idea or not as I have zero experience preparing for a HM. I'm planning on running MAF the rest of the week and possible taking Friday off. I'm thinking about getting another 15 miles at MAF this week.

             

            The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

             

            2014 Goals:

             

            Stay healthy

            Enjoy life

             

              Burnt Toast: nice stuff. very neat pace.

               

              having no experience myself, I can't give you advice on pacing the HM but the rest day and then MAF is a good idea Smile I'm doing the same.

               

              anyway, today I did a tempo-ish run too... I dont think it can be called a proper tempo run, hehe.

               

              the result is I suck anaerobically, no improvement since january. I was even a bit slower. duh! (I do suck aerobically too.)

               

              what is interesting is after this 6 weeks of MAF, the first few mins were not 100% easy but then I eased into it. I did the run @ 178-180bpm for a while, it felt nice and after easing into it, it was not taxing at all.

               

              then I felt like speeding up and I think I taxed myself way too much - I ended up doing a MHR test, I did find a new MHR but it's just 2bpm difference so it wasn't worth it so much. (I'll definitely have to take a rest day tomorrow. hope this doesn't matter for sunday's 12K race.) my legs didn't get tired though. that's good. but the rest of my body did get a bit tired.

               

              I'm not happy because in terms of racing it seems there wasn't any improvement in the last 2,5months basically... that was 1 month MAF+10(mostly), 6 weeks MAF.

               

              I didn't expect the 6 weeks of MAF to do anything to it but I seemed to detect progress in the 1 month before. so that got lost somewhere? I'm sad about that and when I go racing on this sunday I'll care a lot less about its results, I know it won't be anything very cool.

               

              it might have just been a crap day though because when I put the HRM on before leaving my apartment, it showed 130bpm, sometimes 120 sometimes 140. then I looked at the temp meter in the room and it showed 78F, oops dunno why I didn't realize that before Surprised  (it did feel a little too warm, haha)

              maybe this affected my performance in the workout? (after going outside, my HR went back to normal, well, slightly above normal perhaps.)

              jimmyb


                Anaerobic Threshold Run

                Same as last week.

                --Jimmy

                Log    PRs

                rarian


                  New to the group, so to introduce myself, I am a slow runner who has a couple of times been severely dehydrated doing informal endurance events (approx 6% by body weight) and thus take a keen interest in cardiac drift.  I'm a relative novice in LHR training and I'm at this group because Rudolph linked to it on another forum. Thanks Rudolph.  

                  It seems that on this forum I can quote others' posts but only the entire post so all of what I'm noting as quotes come from JimmyB's post of 1/21/2010 with its RQ table.  

                  To quote exercise physiologist and elite marathoner:
                  Pfitzinger,  2001  "Advanced Marathoning" pp 39-40
                  "Let's take a look at the physiology of dehydration.  When you sweat, the following chain of events occurs:
                  - Your blood volume decreases, so
                  - less blood returns to your heart; therefore
                  - the amount of blood your heart pumps with each beat decreases, so
                  - less oxygen-rich blood reaches your working muscles; therefore
                  - you produce less energy aerobically, and
                  - you must run at a slower pace."

                  Conversely, if running at a steady pace, there is no option but for the HR to increase and your data, Jimmy, if I read it correctly shows this clearly.  Dehydration, it seems, is the predominant reason for heart rate drift during exercise.  


                  Quote:
                  My HR rose and then just hung out for almost an hour in a small zone of 144-146. I wonder what it means, if anything.
                  Quote:
                  Any thoughts about this plateau at 146?


                  My thoughts: it was an aberration on the day, or else you drank substantially during the second hour.  
                  Your later run (1/31/2010) is more what I expect in that there is no plateau but the HR continues to climb.  That's usually what happens when I do long, up to 2 hours, steady pace tm runs without drinking.


                  Quote:
                  Of course, there is a point, at a given effort, where your HR should stop rising. It won't keep climbing until you reach MHR.


                  There is no equilibrium point - but I also used to think there must be.  There is a continuum: as long as dehydration worsens pace must continue to slow OR HR must continue to rise OR a combination of both.  I've been there, done that; severe dehydration is a place best avoided, and it takes many hours to get there.  But having the ability to do long steady pace tm runs gives us the option of experimenting with hydration versus HR during those runs.

                   

                  Jimmy, thanks for your response to my email, as you can see I can now post - all it takes is a new PC and a broadband connection!

                  jimmyb


                    Hey Rarian,

                     

                    Welcome. Glad you were able to remedy your situation with posting.

                     

                    Here was my response to that email, which you posted here:

                     

                    Cardiac drift is real, but it differs in people. I view it as stress, and just include it in whatever HR zone I'm working in. In other words, I don't take it into account and run over MAF by ten beats to compensate. When doing an MAF run, the point is to keep yourself at an effort that keeps the stress levels down. Even if I''m working in a higher zone, I won't go over the established top. Some of the drift is due to dehydration, but I do believe part of it is due to fatigue, the health and state of aerobic function, how much fat you are carrying (you heat up faster), etc.--it is the rate your body stresses out during exercise! Drift=stress. This drifting lessens when the aerobic system develops and moves towards its potential. The body feels less stress at the same HR. It dehydrates slower as well.

                    I'm not sure about any equilibrium point, though I still think your HR will not go past a certain point in a normal run at a particular pace. For example, walking 3 mph for 10 hours will probably only rise so far. Of course, if I never stopped walking, and never ate or drank, my body eventually might reach MHR and die. Just theory. I haven't proven it.

                    My RQ test started off with slow running. We increased the speed until about 9-10:00 miles, then we just kept increasing the incline until I felt I couldn't go any more--like a stress test. He didn't stop at AT. He wanted to see how long I could hold MHR, and I held it pretty long. There was a plateau then a deflection up at my MAF of 133. My 50/50 sugar/fat was about 146. At rest, I was burning 50/50. That needs improvement.

                    The RQ test was fun. Though I'm not a fan of running at 12% incline. It is a way to validate your MAF and your AT. In terms of training and racing, probably not necessary. If you're getting faster at MAF, and other HR's as well, and you are feeling healthy, then you're on the right track.

                     

                    Keep posting!

                     

                    --Jimmy

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                    rarian


                      As I explained on long tm runs - up to 2 hours - without drinking my HR climbs continually as your data does.

                       

                      Early this year during a flat 12 hour track ultra for the first six hours I walked/ran keeping my HR below 135.  Later in the event I was keeping to the same lap times but my HR was going to the mid 140s.  I finished with 2% dehydration (by bodyweight).  I assume that had I drunk two more bottles (ten instead of eight) during the event my HR would have been lower towards the end.


                      So, from my experience, its hydrate properly and there's no cardiac drift; dehydrate and there is.
                      jimmyb


                        As I explained on long tm runs - up to 2 hours - without drinking my HR climbs continually as your data does.

                         

                        Early this year during a flat 12 hour track ultra for the first six hours I walked/ran keeping my HR below 135.  Later in the event I was keeping to the same lap times but my HR was going to the mid 140s.  I finished with 2% dehydration (by bodyweight).  I assume that had I drunk two more bottles (ten instead of eight) during the event my HR would have been lower towards the end.


                        So, from my experience, its hydrate properly and there's no cardiac drift; dehydrate and there is.

                         


                        I've never experienced holding the same exact pace at the same exact HR for two hours, and I always drink during running. Even a brief 45 minute or 5 mile MAF test, there will be slowing at the same HR. Although, as I get more aerobically fit, it reduces. I don't think rate of heat dissipation, glycogen depletion, and fatigue can be discounted from the drifting. Dehydration is part of it for sure. I have experienced runs where I have kept the pace the same and the HR within a 10 beat range for about 2 hours--when I was very aerobically fit.

                         

                        You might find this podcast interesting (I did):

                         

                        http://www.enduranceplanet.com/the-road-to-western-states-2010-dr-marty-hoffman

                         

                        Better to be dehydrated than hyponatremic. Lots of good interviews there.

                         

                        --Jimmy

                         

                         

                         

                        Log    PRs

                        jimmyb


                          Lactate Threshold Intervals

                          TM 1%  72º 64%  59ºdp

                           

                          warm-up
                          15:16  101
                          09:45  137   .89mi

                          LT INTERVALS

                          6 x 2:00  (rest interval 1:06- 1:15 @ 13:41 pace)
                          2:00  171
                          1:06  163
                          2:00  169
                          1:08   168
                          2:00   173
                          1:15  171
                          2:00  176
                          1:15   172
                          2:00  176
                          1:15  173
                          2:00  177

                           

                          1.8 miles  10:00 pace (rest intervals included).

                          I am planning on racing a 5k on Saturday. Wanted to get some stimulation without overdoing it.

                          Recovery runs or rest the next two days.

                           

                          --Jimmy

                          Log    PRs

                            just a quick question here - I never saw anything that would answer it for me (and yes I have the maffetone method book). why does it matter if base building is not 100% pure? say, if 90% pure is no good anymore to call it a base building, what are the causes/reasons for that? let's assume here that the 10% non-MAF doesn't give too much stress. any other reason/cause or is stress/risk of overtraining the only one?

                             

                            yeah I'm asking because I'd like to continue MAF for most of the workouts but at the same time sometimes run at higher HR too for two reasons 1) it's such a nice refreshing feeling running at higher HR that MAF running never feels like (MAF is like walking in terms of this) 2) it seems I need to change things around to give new stimuli to my body to elicit improvements again (not sure about this one though).

                              just a quick question here - I never saw anything that would answer it for me (and yes I have the maffetone method book). why does it matter if base building is not 100% pure? say, if 90% pure is no good anymore to call it a base building, what are the causes/reasons for that? let's assume here that the 10% non-MAF doesn't give too much stress. any other reason/cause or is stress/risk of overtraining the only one?

                               

                              yeah I'm asking because I'd like to continue MAF for most of the workouts but at the same time sometimes run at higher HR too for two reasons 1) it's such a nice refreshing feeling running at higher HR that MAF running never feels like (MAF is like walking in terms of this) 2) it seems I need to change things around to give new stimuli to my body to elicit improvements again (not sure about this one though).

                               

                              never mind. I looked at my own training log again and I can see lower performance (@MAF) for the workout after the race+1 rest day. I can recall going up a small "hill" and feeling like "hm this is not the same as before". but next day performance recovered, hills fine too. so, if you race, you may recover from it within a few hours for some people or within 2-3 days as in my case or perhaps more for others. as long as the recovery happens, I still don't think racing while base building wastes time, it's still miles put in for the legs. :P

                               

                              now the next 2 questions remain (and I will attempt to answer them here later myself), 1) ok that was a race at 190+ bpm (average HR was exactly 90% HRR), but a MAF+5 or +10 run may not affect base this much. right? I will see soon. 2) do I need more mileage for MAF to make it more stimulating for me? this one is tricky because there is a possibility that there is only so much time spent with running before my joints decide this is too much (I started running only 7 months ago, 7 on this exact day!). anyway, a related question is, will the necessary mileage depend on the person's running history? I was doing quite a lot of MPW at MAF+10 that wasn't overload so perhaps 30-35MPW at MAF is understimulating for me. but maybe for someone else who was only able to do 10MPW at MAF+10, 30MPW at MAF is perfectly stimulating.

                               

                              that's it for today's rambling-babbling to myself, I will try to answer these later. Smile


                              Consistently Slow

                                 I will see soon. 2) do I need more mileage for MAF to make it more stimulating for me? this one is tricky because there is a possibility that there is only so much time spent with running before my joints decide this is too much (I started running only 7 months ago, 7 on this exact day!). anyway, a related question is, will the necessary mileage depend on the person's running history? I was doing quite a lot of MPW at MAF+10 that wasn't overload so perhaps 30-35MPW at MAF is understimulating for me. but maybe for someone else who was only able to do 10MPW at MAF+10, 30MPW at MAF is perfectly stimulating.

                                 

                                 

                                 2)You may need to change your route?

                                Since you have only been running 7 months I am guessing your base is (foundation) is weak. Two or more yrs with over 1000 miles is a solid base.  Have you manged 700 miles ? Just remember slow and steady. The goal is to run for decades and not months.(my goal). I have been runing since 89' which is kids play on RA.

                                Run until the trail runs out.

                                2013***1500 miles

                                50 miler

                                Race Less Train More

                                 

                                Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                                "The Marble in The Groove"

                                 

                                unsolicited chatter

                                http://bkclay.blogspot.com/