Low HR Training

"Anaerobic" Phase HRT (over MAF) Reports & Discussion (Read 6014 times)

    sorry neglected answering your first paragraph. I will do that now.

     

    ok, firstly, you did not seem sure if I run by HR or by pace. right now, I run by HR...

    easy aerobic runs are in 150's (strictly below 160), and LT in 190-194.

    okay, if I feel like speeding up at the end, then I do that for a couple of mins and then it can go to 197 or so by the end of that Smile.

    these zones are of course after warm-up.

    in general, LT run ends before I pass 195 at whatever pace. also, not longer than about 20-30mins.

    as mentioned before, LT is 1-2 times a week (more 1 than 2).

    I don't care for pfitzinger Smile the LT HR zone is about the same as with daniels - I'm not following his plan.. I like his stuff though. I don't follow anyone's plan right now.. I don't want high mileage yet. I will get back to a plan later when I get confirmation that my ferritin levels are high enough (I go back to the doctor in a couple of weeks for follow up blood test)..

    jimmyb


      sorry, I may not be very good at writing, you misunderstood a lot of my post. I'll attempt to answer your questions even though all of it is in the above posts, just possibly in a too unclear form. so let's go one by one Smile

       

       

      1. I mean same HR on "bad" day resulted in burning legs and (subjective feeling) less oxygen uptake (less amount of breathing).


      2. I mean same pace was fine because I did not have burning at 7:30 pace on either "bad" or "good" day. so I was referring to the 7:30s when I meant "same pace". sorry, that one may have been confusing in the original post. anyway, this is what I meant by it.

      OTOH, I had it (burn) at 7:00 (and I think anything below 7:30 really) on "bad" day, did not have it on "good" day.

       

      3. "not fine" means burning muscles and less amount of breathing.

       

      4. my HR was in 190-194 zone at 7:30 on "good day", my HR was lower than 190 on "bad" day at 7:30 (188).

       

      5. 197 was at 7:00 pace on "good" day.


      6. HR limit is 194-195 for most of the run, I allow 195-197 for last couple of mins only at the end of run.

       

      7. you didn't write "solve everything", I wrote that. Smile

       

      8. I also said that when exhausted, don't run hard. agreement here. I would never do LT run on such a day and I did not.

       

      9. I did not mean regressing MAF test when I meant "messing up MAF test". I meant the exact opposite! I know this is going to be a big woo-woo, sorry Smile 

       

      let me describe it again. this was back in the spring with iron deficiency. on one day in the spring, I was running at MAF HR and it allowed me a pace of 10:30, which was a better MAF pace than ever before that. note, the HR was controlling the run, not the pace. but in reality, I should have gone slower than that HR, because apparently I had elevated lactate at low HR levels too. my legs told me this after a bit of running at the MAF HR at 10:30. they got the burning. so yes, this HR was not truly MAF HR anymore, because it was not as aerobic as before, but how could I have known that from this improved pace at this HR that was MAF HR until then?

       

      10. MAF pace right now is fine, not regressing. it's better than in winter. so according to that, I'm ok with the LT runs, but I think I need to listen to my legs too, not just to the HR.


      +1. I'm sorry if it sent your brain on a woo-woo trip. it sent mine on such a woo-woo trip too. but these are my experiences.

       

      No need to apologize, I'll own my woo-woo, I just have to work harder. Cool

       

      I'll begin with a slight digression and discuss your LT tempo run, and in general. According your P.S. post, your LT runs are kept between 190-194 bpm, then on some days you push to 197. Warm-up is implied, I know that you warm-up usually. If your MHR is 211 (i'm going on a previous post, correct me please if wrong)), then that has you running in a zone of 90-92% MHR, which coincides with Daniel's 88-92% zone. He would have you do 20 minutes at that intensity and you're done. You get all the stimulus you need. He warns against going to a higher intensity. I must add that he is all about going by pace, not HR ( I have already written my reservations about forcing the same tempo pace no matter the temperature, etc.), so when he talks about going to a higher intensity, he is talking about going faster than the LT tempo pace he gives you. His charts work like the Mcmillan Calculator.

       

      Using Coach Daniel's VDOT charts (click to see), I get 7:52 for a threshold training pace (he calls it T-pace). On his chart or table 1, you take a recent race time and establish a VODT value. Taking my 48:42 10k, I'd be a 42. Then go to table two and mile pace for T-pace he gives me a 7:52.

       

      The McMillan Calculator gives me a 7:56 to 8:17 tempo pace for a 48:42 10k.

       

      If you look at my recent LT runs they are in the neighborhood of both, considering temperature.

       

      Basically what I am saying is that since my HR zone is basically giving me the same paces, going by HR is the safer bet in terms of making sure you don't overdo it, or underdo it. You don't have wait until you do another race to figure out if you should be going faster or slower in your threshold tempo pace, the zone will take care of that for you. Pushing past the zone doesn't do anything for me, although there might be a positive mental effect. In terms of anaerobic, I'm almost fully anaerobic at 90%, and there really is no need to go higher. The anaerobic system is getting a workout. Combine this with a race every other week, and it's more than enough--for this 50-year old active sea cow. Cool

       

      1-9, I'll respond, and then you can respond, then I'll respond, then you can respond, and I'll respond....

       

      ****I was thinking looking at your HR zone of 190-194, that it looks like HR"s I've seen you post for races--I looked around and can't find the threads where you posted about that. LT Tempos shouldn't be near your 10k or better race paces or HR"s. They should be a little faster than half marathon pace or HR, and little slower than 10 k pace or HR--somewhere in there"****

       

      1. I'm glad the  burning in your legs were subjective, and that I or anyone else wasn't feeling it. Cool  Why did they burn in one run as opposed to another running in the same exact HR zone (or lower it seems in one of them)? The first thing you have to go to is that the run was too hard for your body that day. Why? Well it could have been your iron condition having a lowish day, it could have been that you weren't rested enough from a previous hard run, it could have been temperature and humidity kicking your butt. Whatever it was, the run was too hard for your body that day. One possibility is that your LT zone is incorrect for you and it should be in a lower HR zone. I'm still not sure how you figured out 190-194 bpms, but maybe the way you figured it was skewed. Maybe not. If the zone is too high, you are more likely to experience a burning leg/hard breathing experience. You really shouldn't at all. I never get burning legs or am sucking for air in a tempo run. If I was to do hard intervals, or run a hard race, yes. But not in an LT run, ever. It's more uncomfortable and stressful than a near MAF run, and you do need a little more oxygen, but those symptoms aren't ones you should get in an LT run.

       

      4-5 (I think 1 covered these, and they also completed my "C studies" informational gap)

       

      6. Why do you go over your zone? What stimulus are looking for? What's the purpose? And why do you go 30+ minutes?

       

      7. That was a blatant overuse of quotes by you that I interpreted as a quote of me. Grammatical and style shame on you.

       

      8. Good. You are the smartest Hungarian I've ever had a discussion with.........you are the only Hungarian that I've had a discussion with....I think. If I go by you and paint with a rather large brush, I would have to believe that Hungarians are smart dudes and dudesses.

       

      9. Woo-woo Cool

       

      I think we are now in a clear space, though I would like to be clearer on how you chose 190-194, and how that zone compares to your race HR's and paces.

       

      On Pfitzinger: I never recommend his stuff as a whole as I think it is a very hard, stressful program that will do some runner's in. The title is "Advanced Marathoning", and I think you have to be pretty advanced to handle it. Even if some aren't, they will be able to see progress with it and be okay, but some won't be--it will fry them sooner or later. What I took from him was the LT stuff, and on occasion like to do one of his aerobic runs during my anaerobic period.

       

      What I took from Daniel's was running by duration (coincides with Dr. Phil on this), and have just compared my paces with his charts on occasion as a measuring stick.

       

      --Jimmy

      Log    PRs

        OK, to answer your questions. Smile

         

        as for my LT runs. as I said, I never had trouble with this HR zone last year. never this burning stuff. this I find important to note.

         

        so I think it's still the iron, this is why I need to watch for the legs too and not just HR. I guess this is just a circumstance where using the HRM is not enough because HR/LT profile may change sometimes.

         

        I was curious if anyone else had this experience, though. this is how I brought up the topic now.

         

        you asked where the 190-194 HR zone comes from. it's what I got from LT run paces - like those for VDOT, and what paces a coach gave me last year. I had great success with it last year, nice PR's and all that.

         

        so, I am pretty sure that this zone was right last year.

         

        let me note, it doesn't have to be 190 right after starting. I allow time for the HR to go up there. but that's what it settles at for the first half of the run(190).

         

        also, not faster than 10K pace, for sure. if I was trying to run 3miles straight at 10K pace I would just feel like dying. (somehow, in a race I feel less dying, though by the second half of the race I am usually dying. but the same (10K) pace before the race would feel too hard and HR too high. this is what I found last year anyway.)

         

        I avoid stuff that makes me feel that "dying" way in my runs. I reserve that feeling for races (running intervals can be an exception, but only for a few secs).

         

        though, I don't know what pace I'd be doing at a 10K right now as I did not have any such races for a long time. so I tried going by the HR zone.

         

        now the one exception about going by HR zone is when I feel too crazy (too much energy to kill?) and so I sometimes speed up at the end of the run, that's when the HR goes too high. I'm sure that's not always wise to do. Smile technically it is not an LT run anymore at that point. I will forget about doing that speeding up for a while.
        btw, I was not looking for any stimulus by doing that.

         

        I don't go over 30 minutes, where did you get the impression?

         

        oh and yes..what you said is exactly why I don't like pfitzinger. I have seen his program and I find it crazy. start from a low mileage and go to 55 in a few weeks including speed workouts? it's just not something I'd do without acclimating first because I would be too worried about my legs holding up. (I did go from lower mileage to 45 but that did not have speed workouts right away..actually never got there.. I ran out of iron well before I would have transferred to speed workouts in the spring.)
        the other thing I don't like about his stuff it's distance based and not time based as far as I could see.

         

        daniels as far as I could see is more for time based running and I like the VDOT idea. those paces are good to know, I think it can be used with HR monitor and then if the circumstances are different it's easy to adjust pace based on what the HR shows.

        jimmyb


          I understand now, C.

          I think your right about the burn in your legs being the iron-deficiency.

          Thanks for all that!

          Cool

          --Jimmy

          Log    PRs

          jimmyb


            Lactate Threshold Tempo

            83°F 63% H

            tm 1%

            heart time  zone 170-180 bpm

             

            7:41  172

            6:19  179

             

            14:00

            1.83 miles

            7:41 pace

             

            Making progress. Fastest pace in almost three years.

            --Jimmy

            Log    PRs

              Making progress. Fastest pace in almost three years.

              --Jimmy

               

              woo! Cool

              Rich Watson


                Although not a LT run I considered Joe Friels HR zones based upon ones LT.

                Today I did a zone 2 hilly  trail run (upper aerobic zone) between heart rates of 148 and 156.

                I covered the 8.4 miles in 1 hours 12 mins at an average HR of 146 (I think this lower average HR is a result of the inclusive warm up). This gave me an average pace of 8:40 per mile.

                Quickest mile was 8 min per mile.

                Rich Watson


                  Treadmill session:

                   Warm up and 4 x 800 at 6:18 pace.

                  Average HR 173 BPM. Max HR 183


                  Consistently Slow

                    Today: 14 miles- 2 WU-10 @ MP(track) -2 CD

                    10 mile pace AVG  8:20***MP 8:24. Mentally I could not do another mile.I am not wiped out .Here is the workout.

                     

                    http://www.runningahead.com/logs/08802278b9144a50a6e5bab8d022c4f6/workouts/33e50b4643e34247b38460df7841a704

                    Run until the trail runs out.

                    2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                    50miler 13:26:18

                    Race Less Train More

                     

                    Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                    "The Marble in The Groove"

                     

                    unsolicited chatter

                    http://bkclay.blogspot.com/


                    Consistently Slow

                      8 miles. Surprised as to the amount of energy I had after yesterdays run. AVG pace 9:43 for 6 miles. HR 135 /150.Moderate to hard run. Too many hills.

                      Date: 7/25/2011 4:39 AM
                      Type: moderate
                      Distance: 7.05 miles
                      Duration: 1:11:05.48
                      Pace: 10:06 / mile
                      Equipment: New Balance MR769JBC
                      Weight: 155.0 lb
                      Heart Rate: Average: 133 / Max: 156
                      Weather: 77° F

                      Run until the trail runs out.

                      2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                      50miler 13:26:18

                      Race Less Train More

                       

                      Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                      "The Marble in The Groove"

                       

                      unsolicited chatter

                      http://bkclay.blogspot.com/


                      Consistently Slow

                        7.3 miles

                        Date: 7/28/2011 4:18 AM
                        Type: Fartlek
                        Distance: 6.01 miles
                        Duration: 56:40.50
                        Pace: 9:26 / mile
                        Equipment: ASICS gel-gt2150 (blue)
                        Weight: 155.0 lb
                        Heart Rate: Average: 136 / Max: 160
                        Weather: 77° F
                        Statistics: Calories: 704
                        VO2 Max: 33.1

                         

                        Intervals (GPS Interval)
                         TypeDistanceTimeTotal TimePaceAvg HRMax HRNotes
                        1 Interval 1 mi 13:00.03 13:00.03 13:01 111 135  
                        2 Interval 1 mi 7:59.30 20:59.33 8:00 147 160  
                        3 Interval 1 mi 9:32.02 30:31.35 9:33 139 160  
                        4 Interval 1 mi 8:12.55 38:43.90 8:13 144 158  
                        5 Interval 1 mi 9:10.44 47:54.34 9:11 142 159  
                        6 Interval 1 mi 8:38.37 56:32.71 8:39 144 155  
                        7 Interval 0.01 mi 0:07.79 56:40.50 12:59 156 156  

                        Run until the trail runs out.

                        2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                        50miler 13:26:18

                        Race Less Train More

                         

                        Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                        "The Marble in The Groove"

                         

                        unsolicited chatter

                        http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                        Tennesotans


                          74°, 72% humidity

                          2 mile warmup, 4 miles at MAF+20 (roughly marathon pace).

                           

                          AHR Pace
                          123 12:16
                          130 11:59
                          149 9:39
                          150 10:04
                          149 10:29
                          151 10:58

                           

                          This felt strange. This was the pace I used to train at... but it felt very foreign after 5 months off.

                          I was thrilled with the 3rd mile until I started to drift like crazy Sad

                          I will likely repeat this each week unless I see some kind of regression.

                          Nine weeks completed, nine weeks until Twin Cities Marathon.


                          Consistently Slow

                            20 miles. Planned negative split. After 3 miles I knew that was not going to happen.

                             

                            2 mile WU 77F

                            8 miles @ 10:06 AVG pace

                            1 mile walk 16+

                            7 miles @ 11:34 AVG pace

                            2  mile CD walk 83 F

                            Chest pains @ mile13. Walked a mile.Realized I hard only drank 1/3 of fluids in hydration pack.Did not set workout up right. Did not get mile splits.Theses are the runs I recall in races when the going gets tough. Smile

                            Run until the trail runs out.

                            2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                            50miler 13:26:18

                            Race Less Train More

                             

                            Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                            "The Marble in The Groove"

                             

                            unsolicited chatter

                            http://bkclay.blogspot.com/


                            Consistently Slow

                              74°, 72% humidity

                              2 mile warmup, 4 miles at MAF+20 (roughly marathon pace).

                               

                              AHR Pace
                              123 12:16
                              130 11:59
                              149 9:39
                              150 10:04
                              149 10:29
                              151 10:58

                               

                              This felt strange. This was the pace I used to train at... but it felt very foreign after 5 months off.

                              I was thrilled with the 3rd mile until I started to drift like crazy Sad

                              I will likely repeat this each week unless I see some kind of regression.

                              Nine weeks completed, nine weeks until Twin Cities Marathon.

                               Was the 3rd mile a down grade?

                              Run until the trail runs out.

                              2014***1500 miles 09/28/14

                              50miler 13:26:18

                              Race Less Train More

                               

                              Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                              "The Marble in The Groove"

                               

                              unsolicited chatter

                              http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                              Tennesotans


                                 Was the 3rd mile a down grade?

                                 

                                43 foot incline (that's a "hill" in MN Wink

                                It must have been adrenaline... first "fast" mile since January.