Low HR Training

"Anaerobic" Phase HRT (over MAF) Reports & Discussion (Read 6008 times)

jimmyb


port-a-bella-potty

    3/7/08 50º 59% humid 21.25 miles 3:11:51 Ave pace 9:02 (after 1st mile) 8:54 11:30 106 10:25 116 9:39 124 9:46 130 (1.06mi) 9:06 132 8:59 135 8:52 138 9:18 140 (1.06mi) 8:47 142 8:58 146 8:36 145 8:49 145 8:54 148 8:37 149 9:14 152 (1.06mi) 8:39 154 8:32 157 8:58 159 (1.06mi) 8:35 162 8:50 165 8:39 165 Had a good run today. It was the warmest day we've had in a long time at 50ºF. I purposefully dressed for low 30's. I wore tights, long sleeve, winter hat, gloves, and a jacket. I'm trying to acclimate myself to warmer temperatures that are more like in the mid-60's. I'm not sure what temp the extra clothing makes it like, but I was warm and toasty the whole run. Normally in 50ºF , I'll wear shorts and a short sleeve shirt! The heart rate plan (with ave pace) was as follows: Miles 1-6: WU-135 (WU-58% HRR) 9:48 Miles 7-11: 136-145 (59-65% HRR) 8:48 Miles: 12-16 146-155 (65-71% HRR) 8:44 Miles: 17-21 156-165 (72-78% HRR) 8:37 Nailed it today. And as advertised by Pfitzinger, the last 5 miles ends up feeling almost like the end of the marathon. 21 miles was about enough today. I'm psyched about the paces. Making some progress. Most of the run was in the 8:00's. Still a long way to go. But it's nice to see. 70 miles this week! Rest tomorrow. Have a great weekend. --Jimmy p.s. WARNING: Even though I use Pfitzinger's zone for long runs, I warn you against it. This zone that tops out at 78% HRR is from ADVANCED Marathoning by Pfitzinger. It is for ADVANCED runners. It is designed for runners with at least a 55 mile per week base. Using the 70-78% HRR zone in the last 1/4 of a run is very hard on the body. It is used to teach running hard while tired in the end of a MARATHON. I suggest you stay away from them until you have a base of 55-60 miles at least. Take it or leave it. Move ahead at own risk.

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    labhiker


      My revised training goal is to waking up the fast twitch muscles. To do so I plan to throwing in one day of anaerobic/ pace stuff per week and keep all other runs at MAF or sub-MAF. All previous training has been at a strict sub-MAF pace, starting with 30min warmup @ MAF-20, then working into MAF-15 and MAF-10 ranges. In general my paces average around 12:30ish range (slow). In general I have not seen much improvement in pace for a while and think its time to mix it up. Hoping to maximize improvement Im trying to follow previous recommendations and break my run into 1/4s of 58%, 64%, 70%, 78% HRR. With an age-based MAF of 134 and an assumed max HR around 185+/- (estimate), my target ranges are 130 bpm, 137, 145 and 156. Today - 8.5 miles (rolling terrain) ave pace - 11:02 (last mile 9:55ish - 156 ave) Thinking it was important to warm up I ran the first 15 minutes around MAF-15/-10 range and slowly built to 130 (MAF-4). Following warm-up I tried to stay in target zones for about 25minutes before climbing to the next level. As I switched to higher zones (70% and 78%) I was working to keep it slow as the tendancy was to open up too much and let the HR climb further. In general everything felt good and very comfortable. I was a little surprised to see my final average pace was still 11:02. Tomorrow will be a long run and Im thinking of keeping it all below MAF.

      labhiker

      jimmyb


      port-a-bella-potty

        My revised training goal is to waking up the fast twitch muscles. To do so I plan to throwing in one day of anaerobic/ pace stuff per week and keep all other runs at MAF or sub-MAF. All previous training has been at a strict sub-MAF pace, starting with 30min warmup @ MAF-20, then working into MAF-15 and MAF-10 ranges. In general my paces average around 12:30ish range (slow). In general I have not seen much improvement in pace for a while and think its time to mix it up. Hoping to maximize improvement Im trying to follow previous recommendations and break my run into 1/4s of 58%, 64%, 70%, 78% HRR. With an age-based MAF of 134 and an assumed max HR around 185+/- (estimate), my target ranges are 130 bpm, 137, 145 and 156. Today - 8.5 miles (rolling terrain) ave pace - 11:02 (last mile 9:55ish - 156 ave) Thinking it was important to warm up I ran the first 15 minutes around MAF-15/-10 range and slowly built to 130 (MAF-4). Following warm-up I tried to stay in target zones for about 25minutes before climbing to the next level. As I switched to higher zones (70% and 78%) I was working to keep it slow as the tendancy was to open up too much and let the HR climb further.
        Even though I use Pfitzinger's zone, I warn you against them. This zone that tops out at 78% HRR is from ADVANCED Marathoning by Pfitzinger. It is for ADVANCED runners. It is designed to teach you to keep pace when the legs get tired at the end of a marathon. Putting in that final 72-78% in the last 1/4 of a run is very, very hard on the body, especially if you haven't improved your MAF paces over time closer to marathon pace.; become a fat-burner. The 78% HRR is getting close to the bottom of the LT zone, so be very careful. Make sure you aren't upping your training load too quickly. I use these zones, but I have a good base, and have had one for years. I also follow a strict recovery protocol. Go easy, build slowly into the harder stuff. Keep track of your training load, avoid training overload and monotony. I suggest, take it or leave it, that you follow these runs with an easy day, not a long run. Follow long runs with a day of rest. I would go as far as to say don't even do them until you have a 50-60+ mile base, top out at 70% HRR (as Parker recommends in Heart Rate Training for The Compleat Idiot) for an above MAF run. Go easy, build slowly. Don't level hop. You wiil always pay for it if you do. Take it or leave. Move ahead at own risk. I think I'll put this warning on all my posts. --Jimmy

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        Master of Inconsistency

          Ran my long run today and decided I would bag it at the first sign of any pain. Well I never needed to resort to that : Smile Today's run 46F and a mix of mist & steady rain ( pretty much looked like a drowned rat at the end ) 15.15 miles AHR 153/166 Pace=9:23 Here are the splits : Mile Pace AHR/Max 1 10:13 136/144 2 10:06 142/147 3 9:37 147/153 4 9:38 149/153 5 9:20 151/155 6 9:22 152/156 7 9:38 153/158 8 9:40 156/162 9 9:12 155/166 10 9:01 157/161 11 9:16 158/160 12 8:57 160/165 13 8:48 160/165 14 9:04 160/164 15 8:43 162/164 .15 1:16 160/161 I feel really good about my splits,(Just don't compare them to Jimmy's) Wink I never had the sharp rise in HR or decrease in pace that seemed to plague me earlier in my training. The best thing about today was the abcense of pain. What a difference a few days makes. I think part of my problem is that the log book has been controling me. If it didn't show that 40 + miles I felt like I failed. I 'll try not to fall into that trap anymore. Good healthy runs everyone, Greg For those who need more info: http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/5117342

          Ain't  Wastin' Time No More !

          jimmyb


          port-a-bella-potty

            Ran my long run today and decided I would bag it at the first sign of any pain. Well I never needed to resort to that : Smile Today's run 46F and a mix of mist & steady rain ( pretty much looked like a drowned rat at the end ) 15.15 miles AHR 153/166 Pace=9:23 Here are the splits : Mile Pace AHR/Max 1 10:13 136/144 2 10:06 142/147 3 9:37 147/153 4 9:38 149/153 5 9:20 151/155 6 9:22 152/156 7 9:38 153/158 8 9:40 156/162 9 9:12 155/166 10 9:01 157/161 11 9:16 158/160 12 8:57 160/165 13 8:48 160/165 14 9:04 160/164 15 8:43 162/164 .15 1:16 160/161 I feel really good about my splits,(Just don't compare them to Jimmy's) Wink I never had the sharp rise in HR or decrease in pace that seemed to plague me earlier in my training. The best thing about today was the abcense of pain. What a difference a few days makes. I think part of my problem is that the log book has been controling me. If it didn't show that 40 + miles I felt like I failed. I 'll try not to fall into that trap anymore. Good healthy runs everyone, Greg For those who need more info: http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/5117342
            Congrats on being a die-hard and running in the rain, Greg! It so easy for me to just go "treadmill!" on rainy, cold days. Nice run. Your HR is pretty steady, getting lots of miles in without a huge jump in HR at any point. Yes, never compare your runs to mine. And never compare yourself to Jesse's exploiits or level. I guess that's true of anyone with anyone. I understand the head of being attached to a schedule. These days I might have 50 scheduled for a recovery week, then just do 35-40 if that feels better. Keep going! Take it easy tomorrow. BTW, I posted a little more about training monotony in the Load sticky in response to a query. --Jimmy

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            labhiker


              OOPs. Sounds like a made a mistake as my weekly base is typically only around 35mpw. I guess I should consider another approach to pick up the pace and try to wake up the fast twitch muscles (assuming I still have some). For the most part the last time I pushed my HR above MAF was a Fall Marathon in October. Is it simply too strenuous on the body to run in the mid 150s for the last 1/4, therefor need for an extended rest period? At the time everything felt fine and I thought I could actually open it up into the 170s without any effort or discomfort. Would it be better to keep to a strictly MAF program and up the mileage into the mid 40s? Im looking ahead a a race in late May and am concerned that my current training has me running everything near 12:30pace range and I seem unable to speed up.

              labhiker


              Hawt and sexy

                Well, the time has come again for me to hit Pfitz. I start the program on Monday for a race in May. And I agree with Jimmy's warning. I adapt HR models that are more in line with HADD as opposed to Pfitz. Even at 70+ MPW going from MAF to balls out is hard at first.

                I'm touching your pants.

                jimmyb


                port-a-bella-potty

                  Well, the time has come again for me to hit Pfitz. I start the program on Monday for a race in May. And I agree with Jimmy's warning. I adapt HR models that are more in line with HADD as opposed to Pfitz. Even at 70+ MPW going from MAF to balls out is hard at first.
                  Marathon? Pfitz recommmends 70% HRR for recoveries (like Parker), but I find below MAF to be much more effective for recovery. I also don't bother with the V02max intervals. LT runs are enough for me. An occasional Fartlekian outburst. You've built a nice base. Way to go. --Jimmy

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                  Hawt and sexy

                    Yep, Jersey again, home of my last PR. And yes, that is why I go for the Hadd type model on heart rates. Pfitz is very aggressive with his zones; Hadd is very gradual with his zones (and they are not that far from MAF really). I am not an elite athlete so this option works better for me. I am reading his Road Racing for Serious Runners right now. The guy has great ideas and is very capable of conveying them so that Joe Blow can use them. I have not hit the HR section yet though. I see that he wants LT intervals (or fartleks) done during base phase after about 40 MPW though. Not sure if I would agree with that, but then I am not the speediest person either. All your base are belong to us.

                    I'm touching your pants.

                    jimmyb


                    port-a-bella-potty

                      Yep, Jersey again, home of my last PR. And yes, that is why I go for the Hadd type model on heart rates. Pfitz is very aggressive with his zones; Hadd is very gradual with his zones (and they are not that far from MAF really). I am not an elite athlete so this option works better for me. I am reading his Road Racing for Serious Runners right now. The guy has great ideas and is very capable of conveying them so that Joe Blow can use them. I have not hit the HR section yet though. I see that he wants LT intervals (or fartleks) done during base phase after about 40 MPW though. Not sure if I would agree with that, but then I am not the speediest person either. All your base are belong to us.
                      Is Jersey a good marathon? I've often put it on "the list of possibles" as it is only 5 hours away. By the way, I know Joe Blow, and he doesn't run. He's a taxidermist who bowls duckpins for exercise. --Jimmy

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                      Master of Inconsistency

                        Ran my first real Tempo in a while, Today 38F partly sunny, Ran 2 miles warm up then 4 Tempo then 2 cool down,here's the splits: Mile 1: 10:04 HR 138/150 2 9:05 153/166 Tempo 3 7:24 174/179 4 7:07 177/180(A bit carried away) 5 7:18 178/181 6 7:16 177/181 7 10:32 157 8 10:15 146 Next time I'll try to keep it at AHR 174 as that is 90% max, this run felt tough but not brutal in any way. I could have gone farther but was glad I didn't have to. If you know what I mean. Big grin Greg Jimmy , New Jersey marathon is my goal race also and congrats on the Maf test. Almost a minute faster in only a month!

                        Ain't  Wastin' Time No More !

                          I also ran my first Tempo Run today. This is my first time purposely over MAF in about 2 months. I ran 6 miles this morning, 1 mile warm up, 4 @ Threshold Pace, 1 mile cool down. I'm using Daniel's VDOT method for my paces, my VDOT (slow, I know) is a 34. I was able to hold 9:20's the entire time. Mile 1: 12:14 @ 142 BPM Miles 2 - 5: 9:20's @ 164 avg, 170 Max Mile 6: 12:39 @ 143


                          Hawt and sexy

                            Sorry Jimmy. I forget where I post sometimes. Jersey is good for the ocean. Hotels are expensive because of the local tax, but the race is great. Not too crowded and plenty of crowd support. I am a returning marathoner so they must do something right.

                            I'm touching your pants.

                            jimmyb


                            port-a-bella-potty

                              Sorry Jimmy. I forget where I post sometimes. Jersey is good for the ocean. Hotels are expensive because of the local tax, but the race is great. Not too crowded and plenty of crowd support. I am a returning marathoner so they must do something right.
                              Okay. Thanks. It is back on the list. --Jimmy

                              Log    PRs

                                Hey Jimmy, I noticed in your log that you set your treadmill at 1%, even when MAFfing. This lead me to wonder, wouldn't it be better to set the mill at -1% to promote more rapid turnover. I know Jesse always talks about running hard down hills and to try to keep it close to MAF.