Low HR Training

"Anaerobic" Phase HRT (over MAF) Reports & Discussion (Read 6014 times)

    Haha - and I will give you the exact opposite advice (as I like to do): Train well for downhill running - get plenty of long, sustained downhill training runs in. Do not let the crowd hold you back and try to bank as much as you can for as long as you can, as long as you keep your heart rate under control. As long as you can avoid the crowds (which is a huge challenge), it can be one of the easiest courses around if the weather is cooperative.
    From what i've mostly heard is that most people go out too fast in Boston and pay for it by the 3rd or 4th Newton hill. My problem now is that I seem to be in that phase where I am seeing rapid improvement. So a couple of weeks ago I was just hoping to BQ again (7:28/mile pace). Now I'm wondering if I can get under 3:10. I think a PR is out of the question, thats 7:06/mile. Not quite there yet, maybe in Chicago or NY in the fall. Had that low HR phenomenom this AM which I get after my long runs. Ran 22.17 yesterday and 11 miles this AM. I was tired. but not spent however it felt like I had to sprint to get my HR up to anywhere near MAF. Ran 11 miles in 8:20/mile which was the fastest I've every run this 11 mile course. My AHR was 139 (MAF-6). First mile was MAF-24. Last 5-6 miles where from 7:53-8:10. I live on Long Island, NY which is predominantly is flat as a pancake. Also since I've been having hamstring and calf issues, too much hill running caused pain in those areas. Though my long runs do have some small 30-40ft up and downs. Not like Boston but it not all flat. The taper light is nearing the end of the tunnel only about a week and a half ....


    run-easy-race-hard

      I don't think anyone who properly trains for downhill running pays the price for starting fast. Starting fast is not the cause of blown out quads, but insufficient downhill training does. The Boston course is an ultrarunner's dream, but the nightmare for someone that does not have options for good downhill training (in which case, it doesn't matter if you start too fast or too slow, you will still have blown out quads).
      jimmyb


        I'm just going by what I've seen lots of my club members do, none of who are ultrarunners. Every single one of them that does the first 5k too fast, crash and burn in the end. Many of them are almost running a 5k-5mile race pace in the beginning. Best to either go by your HR plan or you pace plan. Both equating to a slower first half marathon with a faster half, or even splits (give or take a minute). Take it or leave it always, of course. If anyone wants to run the first 10k of Boston at 10k pace, by all means go for it. --Jimmy

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        jimmyb


          P.S. Of course you will always be a little faster on downhill miles, but what I think happens at Boston is: A) people are excited. It's Boston. B) they run that very first downhill at the start at a fast pace, then they never back off to planned race pace. It's not like the whole first 6 miles is downhill, there are uphills and flats as well. That's why I believe if you stick to an average pace in those first miles that is a little slower than or even with goal pace, you'll et up a good second 1/2 and end for yourself. It's not about quads, it's about glycogen and "the bank." You can only do what you can do. If you try to go faster you pay. --Jimmy

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          jimmyb


            Todays Long run: I decided to keep todays run to 15 miles at MAF with the last 5 up to 70% HRR (154). I found that the Pfizinger runs were leaving me too tired for too many days afterwards, and I believe they led up to the dead-legs I experienced 10 days ago. Since, I've been doing mostly MAF. Today's run went by fast psychologically, though it was my slowest this year due to the zone change. One might call it a "time distortion run." I really enjoyed it. Throughout the run, I stuck to the same sense of pace I reached in the 3rd mile at MAF-15. The slower miles had hills or wind, and the quicker ones downhill or had a good backwind and downriver. I pretty much kept the same pace the whole run. Legs do not feel torched like they do after those Pfitzinger runs. Bike trail 43ยบ Average Pace: 9:58 High Ave HR per mile: 153 (70% HRR) 11:15 108 Bike Trail (hat, vest, tights, long sleeve, gloves) 10:05 119 9:56 126 10:09 127 9:54 128 9:57 130 9:58 131 9:56 132 9:55 135 10:02 139 10:02 140 9:57 139 10:04 141 10:00 142 10:53 150 (1 mile long uphill) 9:12 147 (back down) 9:53 150 9:58 153 9:54 153 9:43 153 A well deserved rest day tomorrow, though I will be doing tax work! --Jimmy

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            run-easy-race-hard

              I'm just going by what I've seen lots of my club members do, none of who are ultrarunners. Every single one of them that does the first 5k too fast, crash and burn in the end. Many of them are almost running a 5k-5mile race pace in the beginning. Best to either go by your HR plan or you pace plan. Both equating to a slower first half marathon with a faster half, or even splits (give or take a minute). Take it or leave it always, of course. If anyone wants to run the first 10k of Boston at 10k pace, by all means go for it. --Jimmy
              No doubt - that's certainly where the heart rate monitor comes in. Without the monitor you're stuck with either luck or conservatism. What I've learned is that pace is irrelevant but effort is highly relevant. Too much effort too soon = burnout (we've all seen that one). The HR monitor is a good gauge of effort, whether you're going down or up. However, as I said, one big problem that many see in Boston is blown out quads, which are an artifact of a missing piece of training.
              jimmyb


                Hey Jesse, Pace isn't important if you use a HR monitor and follow a HR plan. I can see that. But if you don't use one in races, then it is very important. It is important not only to know a proper pace, but then to make a pace plan that doesn't sabotage the race. Usually the only way to do that is to go out too fast. Even with a HR plan, if you planned to keep at 65% for the first 6 miles, and you run 70%, you can't get it back at the end. Here's a quick study of last years Boston winner Robert K Cheruiyot, The pace in the parenthesis is for each 5k). Notice how he started at a pace 8 seconds slower than his ultimate race pace of 5:07. His first half was run 15 seconds slower per mile than his second half. Cheruiyot, Robert K 5k (5:15)....10K(5:14)...15k (5:11)...20K(5:24) Half 0:16:20.......0:32:34.....0:48:40.......1:05:27 1:08:45 1:21:02 1:37:11 1:52:39 2:07:25 half marathon time: 1:08:45 pace: 5:15 2nd half: 1:05:28 pace: 5:00 time 2:14:13 pace 0:05:07 Most of the guys that I see in the top twenty, save a few, ran slower in the first half, and took it easy that first 5k. --Jimmy

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                run-easy-race-hard

                  Indeed - top racers always run negative splits. Not only that, but they seem unaffected by climbing hills. Those who handle hills well do a lot of hill training and intervals and what they get from that is the ability to recover quickly from a raging high heart rate. Many also seem to be able to knock off a near peak 10k performance even after 20 miles. I know none of this works for me after my roughly 25 marathons of trial and error. I've run about 1/2 with negative splits and none of those are even in my top ten times (although they all have been very "fresh" finishes.) I just don't think that rules and experiences of sub-3-hour marathoners apply well to those above 3 hours. My best times have been with a few minutes slower in the 2nd half, generally because the 2nd half always seems to have more ups and, probably since I don't do any speed work or aggressive training runs, I never have the motivation to hold the painful pace at the end that many do. My worst times are in the 2 marathons where my splits were horribly positive, being my 2nd and 3rd marathons respectively. If I were ever to break three hours, I would have to dig deep inside and be willing to feel a lot of pain. I'm not sure I have the mental state to do that yet. One thing that I've noticed after more and more time of MAF training - I'm becoming less and less sensitive to pacing issues (although I do wear the monitor and I know my boiling points). If I start out a bit on the fast side, I may slow down a bit as it gets late, but very slightly. If I start out on the slow side, I lose some time as my heart rate is low. Prior to MAF training, I was extremely sensitive to starting out at even slightly too fast of a pace.
                  jimmyb


                    Jesse, You and I are doing completely different schedules throughout the year. The most marathons I'll usually do in a year is two. You do a lot more than that, including Ultras. If you were to run every marathon you do like it was the big race of the year, I'm not sure you'd stay as healthy as you do. Whatever your marathon PR is, I know you could have run that race faster if you wanted to, but you're about a long season with many, many challenges, and it wouldn't make sense to be running a pace that requires 3 weeks of recovery. We're both animals, but slightly different mutations of the same species. Even though I'm an amateur, I push myself hard like the top marathoners in the last 5 miles not to slow down and get the negative/even split. I'm not the only one doing so. But again, I'm working 3-4 months for one race. Doing and applying all my Jimbo science trying to determine a proper pace. Sticking to a plan when race time comes. I don't use a HRM in a race, the only exception would be to gather data (not to monitor/govern effort). It all comes down to what running world a person is trying to create. If you choose to use a HRM in a race then that will guide your thinking and planning in a certain direction. If you're doing a marathon a month, then maybe 100% of best possible MRP isn't a good idea, or maybe it is--depends who you are. If you do plan to go all-out without a HRM, then following the pro's lead and doing a slower first half, or going for even, might be a good idea. Because if they aren't going out too fast in relationship to their goal pace, then I don't see why an amateur should be. Keep going! --Jimmy

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                    lowgear1


                    Max McMaffelow Esq.

                      First of all I apologise for lack of data..darn dog devoured it, and wouldn't ya know it was my best ever maf test.. Cool Seriously, it's been an absolute delight following the RA forums. I feel like a 10 year old waiting on the latest Harry Potter. GregL..Booyah!..(in spite of Jim Cramer's Bear Stearns debacle, i'm hoping "Booyah!" still has some street cred, even if he no longer does..i'm sure it still has some cachet. At any rate you appear to be in fine fettle! Your upcoming races are gonna be most exciting. Shiksa..Congrats on maf graduation..you deserve at least a PHD in Maf with all the effort you've shown. Your half should be an awesome experience. Sweet Jimmyeola Lobule..Gingha! You make an older fella yearn for younger days.. Tongue besides that, i've got no excuse to not at least toe the line and finish a marathon within a year or two, given the copious advice, anecdotes, charts, etc. that you generously contribute. I need to email the pontiff and get the ball rolling on sainthood. I'm not sure of all the protocol, but my finishing a marathon under your tutelage would certainly be deemed a small miracle, and a BQ would make you a mortal lock. Happy Easter each and everyone! Big grin LG1, Chuffed
                      ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
                      Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
                      ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
                      Shiksa


                      Aerobigal! (thx Jimmy!)

                        Shiksa..Congrats on maf graduation..you deserve at least a PHD in Maf with all the effort you've shown. Your half should be an awesome experience.
                        Can you just follow me around and boost my ego when I need it? I'm fairly low maintenence, but it's nice to have kind words sometimes. Smile Glad to see you back.
                        Stacy
                        I make no apologies for my liberal use of smiley icons. http://stacyruns.wordpress.com/
                          Cool WOW my first post about a run in the 'Anaerobic' section - how very exciting! Well with my fun run next Sunday I decided to take Jimmy's advice (always a wise move it would seem Big grin)) and ran a threshold run today. I got about 1.5 mile into the run and had searing pain in my right calf. Increased pain every time right foot hit the ground. I thought I was doomed to a life of below MAF runs for the rest of my life (which may not be that bad a thing...) However after a short stop and some intense stretching the pain disappeared and got better as the run went on. I didn't feel overly fast, guess those fast twitch fibres take a bit to wake up, but overall was very happy with the run, particularly the finish - i felt i could do the distance again at the same pace! Distance: 13.8km/8.5 mile Time: 1:11:26 Pace: 5:10p/km or 8:20p/mile (30secs p/km faster than same run 2 weeks ago) HR: A little high, avg 167 (MAF+13) but very sustainable, peaked at 182 going hard on a hill It was actually only 300m shorter than my race next week so set me in good mindset for then. Aim pace is 5:00p/km or 8:03p/mile. Hope the adrenaline and one more intervals session can get me over the line. Hank

                          Just running for the fun of it!

                          Shiksa


                          Aerobigal! (thx Jimmy!)

                            Good work Hank! I didn't realize you and I were essentially on the same base period schedule until very recently. I'm glad you were able to figure out what to do with your calf muscle.
                            Stacy
                            I make no apologies for my liberal use of smiley icons. http://stacyruns.wordpress.com/
                              I wouldn't base last years paces as normal. I think they jogged the first half because of the "scary" weather conditions. 2:14 was about 7 minutes slower than he ran in 2006. I think in 2006 they went something like 1:02/1:03 then 1:05/1:04 for the win... Most people I see in last years results who go out fast seem to blow up at the end. Doesn't seem to be too many negative splits...
                              Hey Jesse, Pace isn't important if you use a HR monitor and follow a HR plan. I can see that. But if you don't use one in races, then it is very important. It is important not only to know a proper pace, but then to make a pace plan that doesn't sabotage the race. Usually the only way to do that is to go out too fast. Even with a HR plan, if you planned to keep at 65% for the first 6 miles, and you run 70%, you can't get it back at the end. Here's a quick study of last years Boston winner Robert K Cheruiyot, The pace in the parenthesis is for each 5k). Notice how he started at a pace 8 seconds slower than his ultimate race pace of 5:07. His first half was run 15 seconds slower per mile than his second half. Cheruiyot, Robert K 5k (5:15)....10K(5:14)...15k (5:11)...20K(5:24) Half 0:16:20.......0:32:34.....0:48:40.......1:05:27 1:08:45 1:21:02 1:37:11 1:52:39 2:07:25 half marathon time: 1:08:45 pace: 5:15 2nd half: 1:05:28 pace: 5:00 time 2:14:13 pace 0:05:07 Most of the guys that I see in the top twenty, save a few, ran slower in the first half, and took it easy that first 5k. --Jimmy
                                I tested my leg a little the other night doing 5 strides after my run, and no pain. So, tonight I decided to go down and then up a big hill (~300 ft grade difference over 2.0 miles) and let my HR go up. I had some bad asthma issues (spring time allergies, did not think to bring my inhaler), so I don't think I am really as out of shape as my breathing indicated. The good news is that my leg held up just fine. The bad news is that I cut the run short at 5 miles due to asthma- I went home and cooled down with 20 min easy on the elliptical. I ended up with a 9:51 pace over 5 miles, HRavg=161. I'm okay with that, especially with the big hill and breathing issues. http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/5253683