Marathon Training and Discussions

123

So soooo...tired (Read 916 times)


Needs more cowbell!

    I am about halfway through my 18 week training plan for marathon #2 and I am exhausted. This time around I am not battling any major injury issues, which is nice, but I feel like I can't get enough sleep. Getting motivated to get out the door is rough some days--once I'm out there I feel good, but my energy levels the rest of the time are pretty shot. I wonder if part of it is due to changing weather, allergies, and time change. Perhaps 8 hours of sleep/night is just not enough at this stage in training. I don't recall feeling this sleepy during training for #1, but knee issues also forced me to scale back on mileage, so I think my peak mileage was only about 43 or so miles last Fall. I am already up to over 41 for this training cycle. Zzzzz.....

    I shoot pretty things! ~

    '14 Goals:

    • 2 olympic distance duathlons -- 6 days apart -- PR at least 1

    • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)


    Dave

      18 weeks is a long time. Could be a bit of overtraining. When was your last cut back week?
      I ran a mile and I liked it, liked it, liked it.

      dgb2n@yahoo.com
      xor


        How's your food? You eating enough to support that amount of running?

         


        Needs more cowbell!

          I'm in a cut-back week (and today's 12 was WAY harder than last weekend's 17--ow)...but I think I need to cut back on the XT, too. I've been doing Cathe Friedrich workouts...not even her most difficult ones, by any stretch, but she is still pretty hard-core. I think for the next week I will only do abs and upper body work and leave my legs alone. I had been doing the legs stuff to strengthen my quads and support my knee, but I think mostly I am just kicking my own ass....

          I shoot pretty things! ~

          '14 Goals:

          • 2 olympic distance duathlons -- 6 days apart -- PR at least 1

          • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)


          Needs more cowbell!

            How's your food? You eating enough to support that amount of running?
            Hahahahahaha...you're very funny. I only wish I could keep from eating enough (and then some) to support my mileage. Evil grin

            I shoot pretty things! ~

            '14 Goals:

            • 2 olympic distance duathlons -- 6 days apart -- PR at least 1

            • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)


            Hawt and sexy

              So you are running your long runs at your last known marathon pace and doing 3-4 days a week of quality runs (ie, tempo, long or med)? Gee, no clue as to why you would be tired.... Did you ever consider slowing down a bit? Reducing the number of quality runs you have in a week? Focusing more on the low end of aerobic?

              I'm touching your pants.


              A Saucy Wench

                Take a nap if you can. I find when I hit a new mileage level for several weeks the fatigue builds. Sleep is needed. Then I adjust. It doesnt mean you will always need more sleep at 40 mpw, but that this go round you may. The kind of exhausted I get when I am increasing my training level often is served well with a 10 minute cat nap. I also have had good luck when I am exhausted in the middle of a program to look at the timing of my food. Not the overall quantity, but am I eating the right stuff at the right time. Same with watching the caffeine. Scaling back on the caffeine at certain times has given me more overall energy - probably from higher quality sleep. But any time I am pushing myself my sleep needs increase. Just this week I think I napped 2 or 3 times. One real nap, 2 10 minute naps. And run earlier...as early as you can. I know you usually go when Dane is in school, so try to go as soon as he goes instead of putting it off. Matching your running to natural energy cycles in the day can help ALOT with overall energy and fatigue. I feel sleepy all morning if I havent run yet.

                I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

                 

                "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7


                Needs more cowbell!

                  Well...my last known marathon overall pace is a bit skewed thanks to the violent cramping that smacked me at 20.5 miles. The twinges started around 16 miles and increased until eventually the sharp cramps set-in. After that I walked as much as I ran, which really slowed the cumulative pace down a lot. Take a peek at my splits to see the story. I was running comfortably until the twinges started and actually felt like I was running more conservatively than need be. My overall training pace is about the same as it was the first time around (and when I've checked my HR in the past couple of months while using the treadmill in the heated gym it's been ~145-150bpm @ 11mm pace after running for 30 minutes or so...outdoors in cooler air I'm guessing my HR would be a bit lower at the same pace). I really think it's the cross-training that's kicking my butt, so I'm going to scale back on that for a few weeks to see if it makes any difference. What I've been doing for XT is sort of a boot-camp thing, so relatively light weights, but high reps and fast transitions without much rest (aside from changing plates on my barbell) for a solid hour. Takes a lot more effort than running easy for the same amount of time. I end up feeling pretty trashed after those workouts, instead of rested. MTA: my "happy medium" runs are often run at the same or slower pace than my "easy" runs, so they are effectively also easy, I just wanted a way to visually differentiate between my shortest and mid-length runs of the week. My only workouts that are really significantly faster than any other workouts are classified as "tempo" or "race," so there really aren't a whole lot of "quality" workouts on my log at this stage in the game, aside from the tempos and long runs. I'm following Higdon's Int. 2 plan, by and large.

                  I shoot pretty things! ~

                  '14 Goals:

                  • 2 olympic distance duathlons -- 6 days apart -- PR at least 1

                  • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)


                  Needs more cowbell!

                    Take a nap if you can. I find when I hit a new mileage level for several weeks the fatigue builds. Sleep is needed. Then I adjust. It doesnt mean you will always need more sleep at 40 mpw, but that this go round you may. The kind of exhausted I get when I am increasing my training level often is served well with a 10 minute cat nap. I also have had good luck when I am exhausted in the middle of a program to look at the timing of my food. Not the overall quantity, but am I eating the right stuff at the right time. Same with watching the caffeine. Scaling back on the caffeine at certain times has given me more overall energy - probably from higher quality sleep. But any time I am pushing myself my sleep needs increase. Just this week I think I napped 2 or 3 times. One real nap, 2 10 minute naps. And run earlier...as early as you can. I know you usually go when Dane is in school, so try to go as soon as he goes instead of putting it off. Matching your running to natural energy cycles in the day can help ALOT with overall energy and fatigue. I feel sleepy all morning if I havent run yet.
                    Man, I wish I were a napper. I had a hard time getting myself to nap even when Dane was an infant. If it's not dark I can't shut-off...and I often find that I feel worse after a nap--I think it depends upon the length. The caffeine thing is something I've been working on. I have cut all caffeinated sodas out, so just coffee in the AM. I think running earlier is a good plan, too. I'm just waiting for it to warm up, most days. We had a couple of days that were "warm," but yesterday there were snowflakes in the air when I ran. Now that it's officially Spring I hope that Mother Nature gets a clue. I hate having to bundle up any more than is necessary. Usually it's warmest around 1 or 2, so that's when I've been running out of sheer wussiness. Another thing that I'm wondering about...3-5 nights/week I've been taking Ambien to knock myself out--especially since the time change. I'm starting to think Ambien is like alcohol--knocks me out, but doesn't allow me to have truly restful sleep. Before the time change I wasn't having such a hard time falling asleep at night, but in the past 2 weeks I've gotten that annoying second wind at bedtime. Hopefully my internal clock has reset itself by next week. I really need a few nights of sleeping like the dead. Tongue

                    I shoot pretty things! ~

                    '14 Goals:

                    • 2 olympic distance duathlons -- 6 days apart -- PR at least 1

                    • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)


                    Hawt and sexy

                      Fix cramping with salt pills (ie Suceed) and proper hydration. If everything is truly as easy as you say it is, you should not be tired. So look at diet, other stresses and maybe even more sleep if it is needed. I suggest adding salt into the mix for the next marathon and getting a 'real' marathon pace. Although, if you used a HH plan in the first go-round, that could be part of the problem last marathon. A lot of people need more mileage than HH/Galloway/FIRST plans call for just to build basic endurance/aerobic fitness and are therefore under-trained come race day. That combined with improper hydration and a lack of electrolyte replacement (salt) causes cramping. (The most recent example of this I have seen was on Biggest Loser, during the impromptu half marathon.) These things should be worked out prior to race day, so knowing the problem exists means you better see what you need to use during training runs now. If you are always low on electrolytes, that can cause tiredness (found this out the hard way on meds once) so look at your salt intake. Runners may not lack iron but sometimes they have a need for an iron supplement even if not anemic. There are a couple of theories as to why, but going to Target and getting the smallest mg iron supplement can't hurt unless you know your iron is high from recent bloodwork. I am sure everyone knows how stress at home/work can cause one to be tired, so look there and see if you can eliminate any stress levels on those fronts. Beyond that, if all else fails, sleep more.

                      I'm touching your pants.


                      Needs more cowbell!

                        I definitely think the salt thing is a potential key. I started having those sort of "pre-cramping" spasms during my long runs last Summer leading up to the marathon...not painful, but my calves started feeling like they were locking-up...a very weird sensation. This time around I am taking regular Gatorade and popping open some extra Endurolytes capsules. If I can get my hands on a tub of Gatorade Endurance formula I'm probably going to switch to that, too. They had that at Milwaukee and I was afraid to use it during the first half of the race, since I hadn't used it in training (I had that Gatorade Tiger stuff in my bottle). Next time I will likely avoid plain water except to wash down gels, too. Not sure what they will have at Bayshore...no reference to sports drink on their site, but I'll plan to carry my own, just in case. Within 45 minutes of starting to drink the Gatorade Endurance at Milwaukee the cramps let up and I was able to carefully run the last couple of miles of the race, but I felt pretty defeated at that point. Not even as tired as I had expected to be, just frustrated. I am prone to occasional nighttime charley horse cramping, so maybe I do have some standing electrolytes issues, too. Plus I wasn't able to have my usual breakfast on race day, since my room had no microwave or fridge, so I had a half banana and a Clif bar. I usually am a bacon and eggs gal on race day. I like my salt. At Bayshore I'll probably have some of those little microwaveable biscuit sandwich dealies. I like those things and they always sit well in my stomach, plus are loaded with sodium. The iron thing is interesting. I was anemic when I was younger, but it was mostly due to very heavy periods from endometriosis. Several years ago I had thermal ablation surgery, so nowadays my periods are very light. Might not be a bad idea to have my hematocrit checked, though. I eat a fair amount of red meat and romaine lettuce, so I'm guessing the amount of iron in my diet is good. As for the undertraining thing the first time around--definitely. I had some knee crap develop 2-3 weeks before starting marathon training (mostly due to not taking it easy enough in the week or two immediately after a 25k, I think, as well as needing a bit more medial support in my shoe). I believe my peak week was only 43 miles or so--very light. I ended up taking an entire week off about a third of the way through and scaling back a lot of weeks (then throwing a pair of Superfeet insoles in my shoes in a last ditch effort to find something to placate the knee...thankfully it worked). This time around I should be peaking at 50. If that goes well, then next time around I will follow the same plan, but add an extra easy 4-5 miler each week.

                        I shoot pretty things! ~

                        '14 Goals:

                        • 2 olympic distance duathlons -- 6 days apart -- PR at least 1

                        • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)


                        Hawt and sexy

                          Give me a day or two and I so I can find an old recipe we had at CR for homemade 'endurance' formula gatorade. It's not that hard to make and you can use your fav koolaide. Orange koolaide with the recipe is equal to orange endurance gatorade. I posted it at a private board so I could find it somewhat easily, I just have to find the old site. Endurolytes are good. My foray in the 50 miler attempt lead me to Succeed, but they are not much different. I get night cramps when I have too much potassium in my system. A day or two without the post run banana usually clears that up. You can have all the salt in the world in your system, but too much potassium can cause problems. The only reason I know of this one is because I had a friend years ago that had terrible leg cramps while sleeping. He went to the doc, and the doc told him to quit eating bananas. The cramps stopped. So when i get leg cramps at night, I skip the bananas, and the cramps stop. I believe I read about the iron thing in Noakes' Lore of Running. If I find anything online I will post links. I know we had a couple of threads on that topic at CR, but finding the old threads are hit and miss since active took over. The two theories are that runners need more iron because of the pounding in the feet or runners need more iron because they have more blood than the average person. These are both theories though, nothing is proven. All they know is quite a few runners feel less tired when taking low level iron supplements even though they test within the normal range for iron in bloodwork.

                          I'm touching your pants.


                          A Saucy Wench

                            Short naps refresh me, long naps I want to just stay in bed all day. I run like shit on Ambien. I used to think Ambien didnt hang me over, but I know now it does. I only take Ambien once a week max to avoid dependency and I will save it for a night that I dont plan on running the next day. It can make for a brutal few days, but just knowing "I'll sleep Thursday night" is enough to power through. I am draggy tired the next day after Ambien. I use it to reset things so that I can hopefully sleep at the right time the following night. B vitamins as well as iron. I take EmergenC on the days I run, mostly because of the B vitamins in a form that doesnt upset my tummy. That helps me a lot with energy.

                            I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

                             

                            "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7


                            Needs more cowbell!

                              I get night cramps when I have too much potassium in my system. A day or two without the post run banana usually clears that up. You can have all the salt in the world in your system, but too much potassium can cause problems. The only reason I know of this one is because I had a friend years ago that had terrible leg cramps while sleeping. He went to the doc, and the doc told him to quit eating bananas. The cramps stopped. So when i get leg cramps at night, I skip the bananas, and the cramps stop..
                              Wait...I thought potassium helped prevent that issue. Huh...maybe I've been doing it wrong all along. Confused I'm definitely going to try adding a bit more iron. Come to think of it, my cheap multi-vitamin is not women-specific, so I'm not sure that it has much--if any--iron. Ennay, the Ambien may well be giving me a bit of a "hangover," but I'm also wondering about Benadryl. That stuff no longer makes me drowsy at night (I take it this time of the year at bedtime as an added defense against allergy issues and hives that come with it), but maybe it has a carry-over effect the next day. This week was the first with me taking Benadryl and the first week of training that has me feeling lousy.

                              I shoot pretty things! ~

                              '14 Goals:

                              • 2 olympic distance duathlons -- 6 days apart -- PR at least 1

                              • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)


                              A Saucy Wench

                                Oh god Benedryl? for me benedryl (25mg) gives me a 12-15 hour hangover. And no, it doesnt help me sleep. My MIL who used to have to take 50 mg /day every day would drink 3-4 pots of coffee a day. Magnesium is good for night cramps. It's all about balancing out the minerals

                                I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

                                 

                                "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

                                123