Masters Running

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...and a wonderful Thursday (Oct 2) it is... (Read 595 times)

    Dale, wtg to you two.
    thanks, Deb.
    Dale, that's great. Dark Colt had a different experience today at his middle school cross-country race. First meet of the year, and he isn't in shape so hasn't been running well in practices, but he is a gamer and did his best today. With about a quarter-mile to go, he was about 6th out of 50-plus boys, but he got a bad stitch in his side, and about 20 kids passed him as he struggled to keep running. I felt sick watching him, but I guess not as sick as he felt. The stitch took a while to ease up, too; he was still hurting when we got home. Ugh. Just a bad day at the races. Dark Horse
    There will be better days ahead. My son had that same experience last week, with a side stitch. It will get better. I think it's terrific that the Colt is out there doing CC! I'm sure he has talent and his ability will come out in the end. To better days!
    Teresadfp


    One day at a time

      Yep, Dark Horse, tell your son to hang in there. Last year, the fastest boy on my son's team kept getting sick during EVERY race, XC and track, longer than a mile. Dry heaving or worse. His folks took him to doctors but they couldn't figure out what was going on. This year, though, he's been fine - just ran a 5k in 16:26. Also, persistence does pay off. DS16 was pretty slow in middle school - a kid named Mark used to LAP him in the mile! Three years later, DS can beat Mark in the 5K with no problem. I think the reason is that DS is religious about following his training schedule, including early morning runs, when Mark tends to sleep in, skip cool-down runs, etc. Hard work definitely pays off! Good luck to Dark Colt! XC is the best sport ever.
        Dale and Teresa, thanks for the encouraging words about Dark Colt's cross-country. That's interesting about the progress from middle school to high school. Dark Colt hasn't bought into running yet, and till he does, not much improvement will happen. I am trying to hold back, but as I told him again yesterday, if he wants to get better, he has to run more mileage. I offered to run 6 miles with him this coming Sunday, and he said, "I haven't even run three miles yet." I said, "Don't worry, we'll run slow enough that you can do it." He said he would try, so we'll see. When he was 8, he could run 6 miles no problem, but really hasn't trained since then, and as a result is now slower at age 12. Dark Horse
        I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course.
        TammyinGP


          DH - my two cents is that if you want to encourage our son to continue with running and get better, to only increase distances by smaller amounts - not doubling up on distance by going from less than 3 miles to 6 miles. If he already is not thinking he likes running much, then doing that long of a run, even if you go slower to make it easier, will probably just make him hate it more. But if you only increase by a mile each time you do a longer run, it likely won't seem that awful to him plus he'll have a sense of accomplishment at achieving a little more each time - which will hopefully boost his enthusiasm for the sport. Of course, that's only my 2 cents and you know your son best. I'm just projecting how I would have felt at that age, when I also disliked running.

          Tammy

            DH - my two cents is that if you want to encourage our son to continue with running and get better, to only increase distances by smaller amounts - not doubling up on distance by going from less than 3 miles to 6 miles. If he already is not thinking he likes running much, then doing that long of a run, even if you go slower to make it easier, will probably just make him hate it more. But if you only increase by a mile each time you do a longer run, it likely won't seem that awful to him plus he'll have a sense of accomplishment at achieving a little more each time - which will hopefully boost his enthusiasm for the sport. Of course, that's only my 2 cents and you know your son best. I'm just projecting how I would have felt at that age, when I also disliked running.
            Tammy, good points. I will think about it. My feeling is, he really can do 6 miles if we go slow, and if he will hang in there and just do it, his 2-mile races will seem real short to him. I will try to distract him during the run by getting him talking, so he isn't dwelling on how far he is going or how long it is taking. If he can finish the 6 miles, I'll say, "How do you feel? That wasn't so bad, was it?" then take him out for ice cream, which he likes. This is a kid who can backpack 17 miles a day in the mountains, who started racing cross-country at the local park when he was 5 years old, who won the M08-10 age group in the local 5K three years in a row (at age 8, 9, 10). He's not made of sugar and spice. Dark Horse
            I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course.
              Dale and Teresa, thanks for the encouraging words about Dark Colt's cross-country. That's interesting about the progress from middle school to high school. Dark Colt hasn't bought into running yet, and till he does, not much improvement will happen. I am trying to hold back, but as I told him again yesterday, if he wants to get better, he has to run more mileage. I offered to run 6 miles with him this coming Sunday, and he said, "I haven't even run three miles yet." I said, "Don't worry, we'll run slow enough that you can do it." He said he would try, so we'll see. When he was 8, he could run 6 miles no problem, but really hasn't trained since then, and as a result is now slower at age 12. Dark Horse
              I'm not a boys CC coach, nor do I play one on tv, but... I've tried to keep my boys interested in running and other physical activities as much as I can-by example and offering to do active things like biking, whenever I can. For the running part, we've gotten DS2 ready for CC this year, by running for time first. Starting a couple of weeks before CC started, we ran 20 minutes, very slowly 2-3 times/week. We made about 2 miles-his pace was 10min/mile. He struggled and needed to walk several times in the beginning, but progressed pretty well. We vowed to try to run 3 times/week over the next couple of weeks. We jogged about 2 miles each time. We did no longer distances and nothing fast. After a couple of weeks, the paces started to get a bit faster-closer to 9:00-9:30/mile. Then 2 weeks before CC started, we started to run 4-6 segments of 2 minutes-pretty hard; once/week and once per week we ran 1 mile continuously as a time trial. His times came down quickly and he was hooked with his progress. He has not run more than the 3 miles or so that they do in CC practice. They then ran about 5x/week-basically every day going about 3 miles. Now we're into the meets and they race 2x/week with a few practices now and again. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd vote for adding short speed-rather than endurance. Consider making one run/week faster; in short bursts. Make it fun-race to the next telephone pole etc...try to eual the time of the actual race. If he runs 3K in 14 minutes, try to work towards 6-7x 2 minutes. I'd also vote for llimited mileage increases beyond 4 miles. This isn't endurance training-it's cross country. It should be fun (and fast). Of course, the season is already underway and it may be a moot point...and of course, all kids will improve at different paces and with their own best training stimuli-whatever that might be. You know your boy pretty well, so maybe longer distances may be better. Good luck, DH.
                You know your boy pretty well, so maybe longer distances may be better.
                Dale, thanks for your very specific comments. You know a lot more about training than I do. The thing is, Dark Colt is just not fast. I was way faster at his age, with no training at all. But he is strong, and tough. The only thing for him is mileage, in my opinion. He's got to get stronger than other boys, because he's not as fast. Of course, in the real world, the best training is whatever you can get your athlete to actually do. If I dreamed up an ideal training plan, but he hated it and wouldn't do it, we'd get nowhere. My goal is not to dream up an ideal training plan, but simply to see if I can get him to do a long run once a week. This would help develop his comparative advantage, and would make the race distance seem shorter. It would also build self-confidence, and make him less afraid of long distances. There's a fine line between challenging and discouraging a young athlete. Dark Horse
                I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course.
                evanflein


                  There's a fine line between challenging and discouraging a young athlete.
                  That statement seems like it should be such a basic element of any coach's training program, but it's amazing how many just don't get it. I sure wish DS1's soccer coach understood that.
                    There's a fine line between challenging and discouraging a young athlete. Dark Horse
                    agreed, but I wouldn't be so quick to say he 'isn't fast'-especially if his old man has speed...the apple doesn't fall far...I'd be willing to bet that all kids have the potential to run pretty fast with a little rep work. He hasn't gotten any positive reinforcement in running faster-or any practice. That's why short reps are so useful (and fun). Think about it...
                      That statement seems like it should be such a basic element of any coach's training program, but it's amazing how many just don't get it. I sure wish DS1's soccer coach understood that.
                      Erika, you should read Running with the Buffaloes (I bet you already have). It seems to me like that coach, and probably a lot of other cross-country coaches, simply pushes his athletes till they break. The ones who don't break, or who break last, get to run varsity. Everyone else is on injured reserve. To me, that's no way to run a program. But then, I don't run a program, so I'm not subject to the pressures to win now. If I were a coach, I'd always be thinking long-term, and asking myself: "What does my athlete (and I would consider every athlete separately, as an individual) need to become more successful, not just this year, but next year, and in future years at the next level?" I think that's exactly the kind of coach Bill Bowerman was. I would rather lose the next meet, if it meant my athletes benefited long-term. Too often, in my opinion, coaches ask themselves a very different question: "What can I do to get the most out of these athletes now, and to hell with their health and future development?" Dark Horse
                      I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course.
                      TammyinGP


                        <quote pid="e5a1c1d53fda41dfab7042c17b43c3ea. . . this is a kid who can backpack 17 miles a day in the mountains, who started racing cross-country at the local park when he was 5 years old, who won the m08-10 age group in the local 5k three years in a row (at age 8, 9, 10). he's not made of sugar and spice. dark horse</quote> i don't doubt that endurance-wise he could handle a 6 mile distance. it's the mental aspect of the distance that he is probably not thrilled with. and i think mentally, it's easier to overcome that hurdle when distances are increased in smaller amounts. sounds like he's a kid though with alot of untapped potential and he's just missing the internal drive to push himself to that potential. pid=""></quote pid="e5a1c1d53fda41dfab7042c17b43c3ea. . . this is a kid who can backpack 17 miles a day in the mountains, who started racing cross-country at the local park when he was 5 years old, who won the m08-10 age group in the local 5k three years in a row (at age 8, 9, 10). he's not made of sugar and spice. dark horse</quote> i don't doubt that endurance-wise he could handle a 6 mile distance. it's the mental aspect of the distance that he is probably not thrilled with. and i think mentally, it's easier to overcome that hurdle when distances are increased in smaller amounts. sounds like he's a kid though with alot of untapped potential and he's just missing the internal drive to push himself to that potential. >

                        Tammy

                          I'd be willing to bet that all kids have the potential to run pretty fast with a little rep work.
                          Well, I just don't agree. You are a much nicer guy than I am, as we all know, and I love your attitude as a way to encourage the slower kids, but I just don't agree that all kids have the potential to run fast. I have seen a lot of kids run, including at yesterday's cross-country meet. Some of these kids, especially the girls, you could have timed with a sun dial. I think you have to start by looking at every kid's limitations, acknowledge what they are, and then look at the strengths, and ask yourself: "How can I make the strengths so strong that they trump the limitations?" Not that a slow kid should do no speed training, but I don't think you should expect too much from that approach. Look at Lydiard: he took guys who weren't fast, but made them so strong that it didn't matter. Dark Horse
                          I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course.
                          evanflein


                            timed them with a sun dial. Heh, gotta remember that one. Our soccer team has developed over the years where some of the kids who just sort of lumbered around a couple years ago are really fast now. And some of the kids who were so speedy when younger are just not that fast anymore. These are usually the "smaller" boys who could rocket around the field when they were 11, and now at 14 the bigger kids just fly past them. DS1 was so fast when younger, and I believe he could be still. He won all sorts of contests as a 9 and 10 year old. Now at 16 he'd rather sit around than run, and it shows... mostly in his stamina (he can still out sprint most kids) as even running a 5k is hard for him now.
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