Trails are hard!
I think I need a tesserac to improve my times.
Need a fast half for late fall. Then I need to actually train for it.
MM #5615
I think us taller runners should get a factor too.....
No! Believe it or not, this world does not revolve around all you tall people. In fact--I would say that if height were figured into these equations, shorter people should be getting the add-on. You should see how many more steps I have to take to cover the same distance as you tall people.
Sorry..."little guy syndrome" just kicking in a little bit there....
You're not helping me any! I woke up thinking about my last 15k in Oct. '11, how it was hillier than this one tomorrow, comparing my weight (I'm 7 pounds lighter now) and doing those calculations. I particularly like the heat and humidity adjustments, although they're not relevant this time of year. This thread is fun reading!
"I didn’t run a race until I was 41 and that was a marathon! Let that sink in for a minute." -me
Just wow! This is what WRFB lives for.
aka Mrs. WillRunForBeer, MD, USA Marathoning, the triumph of desire over reason
Yes, I've actually been thinking about something like this for a while, but haven't put anything down on paper. Great to see someone has done the leg work!
Now we need some experimentation to tune the factors.
Lou, (aka Mr. predawnrunner), MD, USA | Lou's Brews | lking@pobox.com
And the racewalking vs.running differential is...?
Jay
Without ice cream there would be darkness and chaos.
What about the Ilene factor, for me each of my miles counts as 1.25 of your miles.
Nice try Ilene, but since you lene forward, you incur a gravitational advantage and thus must suffer a slight penalty. Ilene miles only count as 0.98 miles. Beside you have Fast anyway.
I must disagree on the Wind factor. Like Hills, the tailwind never quite makes up for the headwind.
You also need to factor in Surface. Like snow, this can be a big factor. Asphalt pavement is neutral but dirt, gravel, mud and sand are all progressively more taxing. The case can be made for concrete being easier.
Agree strongly with Henrun on the age factor, too.
Other than that, well done and spot on!
Skip
(Making a rare drive by posting, and saying Howdy to the old-timers on the forum.)
MM #405
Hi Predawn, WRFB, and Skip! ...just so great to see you all are here and I've missed you!
- thanks Wild for starting this and getting everyone to chime in!
arf
wild, your post and the responses have been fun to read. It was also great to hear from some we don't hear from often.
TomS
This is pretty cool. Need a factor for dogs that pull you along. Not all are anchors. Just ask Tag.
No more marathons
You also need to factor in Surface. Like snow, this can be a big factor. Asphalt pavement is neutral but dirt, gravel, mud and sand are all progressively more taxing. The case can be made for concrete being easier. Agree strongly with Henrun on the age factor, too. Other than that, well done and spot on!
Hello masters.
Frequent reader - seldom poster in this forum but had to comment on the great job done by Wildchild.
Got to throw my two cents worth into SkipAZ comment regarding surface. Even flat smooth trails slow me down, not to mention all those with roots and rocks. Need some kind of factor that accounts for all the tumbles I take.
Boston 2014 - a 33 year journey
Lordy, I hope there are tapes.
He's a leaker!
Carolyn
Thanks for all the comments! It looks like my theory needs some revisions! To address some of your comments/suggestions:
...Factor in' ' DeepWater'' and I think you're onto something.......
Not sure how to factor in pool running - since your actual distance is zero miles, any factor still gives you zero miles!
I noticed that most of those factors seem to be relevant to your normal runs. don't you run enough miles as it is?
I'm not trying to boost my mileage totals - just rationalize why they're so slow!
And don't forget age. We 'old' people want to be factored in also!
Okay, I should add an age grading factor. I propose you can add 1% for each year over 40. So when you're 60, a mile counts as 1.2 miles. This is loosely based on the BAA Boston qualifying times which give you a 20% increase in qualifying time when you're 60 compared to 40.
I think us taller runners should get a factor too.....I've got extra height (and therefore weight) on a lot of you shrimps, so don't I get credit for that? Plus, I think your sideways wind is a bit off. If it is a hot day, the sideways wind cools you down, so it cancels out some of the heat factor. Gosh, you really could get sucked into thinking about this too much. How about just looking at avg HR!!!! and if it is higher than normal, you can multiply that..... HRnewrun/HRusualrun X mileage of run = effective mileage for new run
I don't think height matters - Mike says he should get extra credit because he's short, but he's one of the fastest ones here, so no way! But then again, Tallrunner is fast, too, so I can't give extra credit for tall folks. And as far as wind being helpful when it's hot - I've added that to the wind factor - see below. And many of us don't track heart rate, so if you want to add your own correction, go for it!
Next thing you know, she'll be factoring in the relativistic time dilation factor...
Not unless your pace is approaching the speed of light! Mine is only approaching the speed of smell....
And the racewalking vs.running differential is...? Jay
I have no idea. Sorry! You'll have to propose your own factor.
I must disagree on the Wind factor. Like Hills, the tailwind never quite makes up for the headwind. You also need to factor in Surface. Like snow, this can be a big factor. Asphalt pavement is neutral but dirt, gravel, mud and sand are all progressively more taxing. The case can be made for concrete being easier.
Okay, I agree. The wind factor should be adding 1% for every 1 mph the wind is blowing over 10 mph as a headwind, and subtracting 0.7% for every 1 mph over 10 mph as a tailwind. And a sideways wind adds 0.5% for every 1 mph over 10 mph, but only if it's below 60F.
Surface factor: Asphalt is neutral. For increasing difficulty in surfaces, the mileage factor is somewhat subjective, but I propose adding anywhere from 1% to 20% for surface difficulty, with increasing percentages for smooth dirt, gravel, mud of varying depths, rocks, roots, sand, boulders, and cliffs. I should also amend the snow factor to allow anywhere from 1% to 10% per inch of snow, depending on if it's hard packed, slushy, or loose and sandy, or for deep snow, if it has a crust that you post-hole through.
Well, I've mostly trained my dogs not to pull, but for the dogs who pull somewhat steadily in the direction you're actually going, you should subtract 2% for every 10 lbs the dog weighs. Thanks for your suggestions! I'll give you all credit when this gets published in a major journal!
I hammered down the trail, passing rocks and trees like they were standing still.
AWEsome Wildchild!
Even for a carefree, run as I please runner, this thread was very informational and the facts shared here actually made me think!
You go, girl!
Yes, an app would be cool to see!!! Roachrunner to the rescue?
"Champions are everywhere; all you need is to train them properly..." ~Arthur Lydiard
I agree with Skip 100%. Footing makes such a hugh difference, as I am reminded every run these days when I'm running outside on unplowed bikepaths, or the plowed sidewalks with the exposed ice from January's rain. Like running on cornstarch or greased aluminum....
Interesting proposals, but Mariposai, I sure don't think there are many facts here!
Bump. Worth another read or maybe some folks haven't seen this. Also one of my FB friends was discussing the temperature effect, and so I published this link to his FB thread, and I thought I might as well come visit.
As I mentioned before, I had wanted to study this. Of course I've done nothing of the sort because I haven't quite found the time.
As you point out, there are a LOT of variables. It'd be an interesting exercise to find the right coefficients and exponents.