Pickens County Y Race Team

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Speaking of Nutrition... (Read 419 times)

ehunter


    Haylee...given the talk about nutrition on the other thread, you may find this interesting.

    Today was my long bike ride...here are some interesting numbers:

     

    I spent approximately 5664 calories.

    I consumed approximately 2500 calories - not enough.  You can't replace every calorie without making yourself sick, but the 3164 calorie deficit is wayyyyyyy too much.

     

    I consumed almost 20 pounds (yes, 20 pounds) of liquid.  At the end of my ride, my weight loss was 6 pounds.  This means that I actually lost 26 pounds on my ride - incredible.  20 pounds consumed to replace 20 of the 26 pounds lost.  Not enough. 

     

    My sweat rate was a little over 3.4 pounds per hour.  Thats insane - I was losing almost 3.5 pounds per hour.  To replace that, i would need to consume 3  20 ouncesport bottles per hour (a 20 fluid ounce bottle of water actually weighs 1.5 pounds).  I would have needed 24 sport bottles to replace everything I lost.

     

    My consumption was approximately 14 sport bottles of Nuun, Gatorade, Water, and Perpetuem.  I consumed 8 gels and 2 packs of GU Chomps. I ate 2 pbj sandwiches and a candy bar.  All of that and still over 3000 calories short.

     

    Anyway, you cannot replace all that you lose without making yourself sick and bloated...there is a limit to the amount you should consume and lots of formulas to help figure it out - but I wasn't even in the ballpark

     

    If this would have been my IM race, I probably would not have been able to even complete the marathon.  With such a huge calorie deficit and a fairly moderate stage of dehydration, I would have been starting in a huge hole that would have been too large to dig out of.  This is why I say nutrition is the 4th discipline.     

      So i just looked up some calorie intake/ironman info on the internet and the two articles i read said you should replace 30%-50% of calories burned and the one said 35%-60% of calories burned.  This makes sense to me seeing as how the carb loading and big breakfast should have your body already stocked up with extra calories.  Do you not agree?  If you took in 2500 calories, that should be about right. 

      I think biking 121 miles in this heat is flirting with overloading your body.  Did you see that special about the distance swimmer, Fran, that died in Abu Dhabi during that swim?  He was in awesome shape and just overheated.  That could have been you.  or that goat.

      Also, i've been reading a new triathlon book from USAT...  it says that once you get over 40 (you) you should shy off the long/slowish training and focus on the shorter more intense stuff because your VO2/lung capacity etc is decreasing by 3-5% per year or something like that.  Also, it recommends reducing your running too.  Sucks getting old, huh?

        I had to read that twice... A) so tomorrow will you feel extra shitty because you're so behind on calories or is the weigh loss the only downside? B) do you make an alpaca ride alongside you to carry your 14 bottles of liquid? C) you're kind of awesome.
        pschriver


          I agree that nutrition is the 4th discipline. I think good nutrition can make you perform up to the best of your ability but bad nutrition can hurt you.

           

          I think you calorie intake today was fine. For women they should take in 125-175 calories per hour depending slightly on weight and intensity, and for men 150-250 calories per hour..I'm assuming you rode around 7 hours. 2500 calories is plenty. Blood is shunted away from your GI tract during stress so you are not going to be able to absorb the same amount of calories during exercise that you do at rest.   

          tallulah


            all this is better than the olympics

            pschriver


              Haley chimed in while I was typing. Eric will feel bad tomorrow because he rode 120+ miles today not calorie deficit.  I'm also sure he will take in plenty of calories over the next few hours. You do have to be careful when you pack on big mileage because your weight can drop very quickly and excessively. Snacking on high value foods like nuts and lean proteins is a good idea. Calorie deficit is something that needs to be measured over days and not hours and not one big effort.

               

              I'm curious also how you carried all of that water. I rigged my bike to carry 4 water bottles and had a cooler stashed with extra bottles at times but occasionally had to resort to sprinklers, public water fountains or gas stations. 14 bottles is impressive. 

               

              The weight loss sounds about right. I would loose anywhere from 7-10 lbs after a 70+ mile ride. This is completely healthy and supported by a very good, peer reviewed article published last month in the British Journal of Sports Medicine.

              ehunter


                So i just looked up some calorie intake/ironman info on the internet and the two articles i read said you should replace 30%-50% of calories burned and the one said 35%-60% of calories burned.  This makes sense to me seeing as how the carb loading and big breakfast should have your body already stocked up with extra calories.  Do you not agree?  If you took in 2500 calories, that should be about right. 

                I think biking 121 miles in this heat is flirting with overloading your body.  Did you see that special about the distance swimmer, Fran, that died in Abu Dhabi during that swim?  He was in awesome shape and just overheated.  That could have been you.  or that goat.

                Also, i've been reading a new triathlon book from USAT...  it says that once you get over 40 (you) you should shy off the long/slowish training and focus on the shorter more intense stuff because your VO2/lung capacity etc is decreasing by 3-5% per year or something like that.  Also, it recommends reducing your running too.  Sucks getting old, huh?

                 

                Yep, I totally agree - the point I was trying to make was related to the previous thread about intake and nutrition.  I was fine for the bike ride yesterday no doubt.  But nutrition can trump the best of fitness in long races and can ruin your day.

                 

                Lets look an Ironman race for example.  For me, the swim will take about 1500-2000 calories which will basically burn off everything I had for breakfast and then some.  Plus there is nothing going into me in the swim.  Then the bike, take yesterday - I fueled well but still had a calorie deficit of over 3000.  Then comes the run - the run will cost me over 4000 calories easily.  On the run, most athletes will take in fluids at every stop and a gel about every 45 minutes.  So, lets say the calorie intake is 1300 calories based on a 4 hour marathon and 6-7 gels total and gatorade at each stop.  That gives us almost 12000 calories spent and not quite 4000 calories consumed.  Thats around 30% which is at the low end of the spectrum.   So, yes, you will not only have to have a good breakfast, but your diet in the days prior to the race has to be well planned also. Plus this shows just how little room for error you have with nutrition - if the above is what i do in a race, then any fueling mistakes i make can bring my race to an end...or a long long walk.  Of course all of this matters very little in short races.

                 

                All of this does not take into account conditions like we have now:  heat and humidity.  Thats makes the hydrating and nutrition doubly important.

                 

                Per your "age" comment, I always understood that as we age, the longer distance races are what we will be able to maintain longer as opposed to the shorter and more intense races.  Speed is suppose to be gone long before endurance.  But yes, it sucks getting old.   

                 

                To reply to Halee:

                A)  I felt pretty good this AM.  I have put in a lot of long bikes leading up to now so that was sure to help - plus the ride was a long slow effort where I stayed in Zones 1-2 and low 3, so I never pushed any lactic acid into my legs which would have led to soreness today.  I was a little fatigued from the heat though.  My weight is back to where it was.

                B)  I plan my long ride routes to pass by convenience stores so that i can stop and buy liquids.  I pass by one about every hour or so.  My bike holds 4 bottles.

                C)  Josh sends me a text every night before he goes to bed telling me the same thing. 

                  Haley, you probably fell asleep while reading Eric's initial post.  His Iron-calculations are tough to understand.  Here is some of my data from yesterday:

                  At 8:00pm i sat down on my couch to watch the olympics.

                  I drank a 12 oz beer. 

                  Then I at 2 handfuls of bar b que chips (kettle cooked)

                  Then I drank another 12 oz. beer.

                  I don't think I broke a sweat at all, since my AC was on 75 degrees

                  Feeling like i had a calorie deficit from watching my kids all day, i decided to have a "generous" bowl of vanilla ice cream.

                  Then me and kate watched a movie for 1hr 45 min.

                  Then, as we headed to bed, I had lots of stored calories and i was prepared for a 15 minute intense workout, but she was tired and went to sleep. 

                   

                  Hope this helps.

                    15 minutes, huh? Weak.
                    ehunter


                      Haley, you probably fell asleep while reading Eric's initial post.  His Iron-calculations are tough to understand.  Here is some of my data from yesterday:

                      At 8:00pm i sat down on my couch to watch the olympics.

                      I drank a 12 oz beer. 

                      Then I at 2 handfuls of bar b que chips (kettle cooked)

                      Then I drank another 12 oz. beer.

                      I don't think I broke a sweat at all, since my AC was on 75 degrees

                      Feeling like i had a calorie deficit from watching my kids all day, i decided to have a "generous" bowl of vanilla ice cream.

                      Then me and kate watched a movie for 1hr 45 min.

                      Then, as we headed to bed, I had lots of stored calories and i was prepared for a 15 minute intense workout, but she was tired and went to sleep. 

                       

                      Hope this helps.

                       

                       

                      Lol...I don't know which is funnier - your comments or Halee questioning your manhood and labeling it "weak".  

                       

                      Maybe you should explain to Kate that it was only going to be a "sprint" distance event and not an "ultra" event.

                       

                      None-the-less, I saw Kate at the Y this morning and she said she thought it was a little strange that you got back up shortly after going to bed to work on your "tug toner" technique - I told her I'm sure it had no reflection on her dissing you. 

                      pschriver


                        I found this article to be pretty helpful. http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e4737

                         

                        I still believe in hydration and the importance of electrolytes but "too much" of a good thing is not "better"

                         

                        My suggestion is to take in the "right amount " of calories, electrolytes and fluids for a given event. The best way to figure iy out is hours and miles of training.

                         

                        The best Enduralyte study I have seen showed that it is very effective in relieving leg cramps in people who believe it works. The results were about the same in the same group of people who received a placebo. As long as you believe it works it should help. The amount of salt and potassium in the Enduralyte tabs is less than a pack of peanut butter crackers so I would prefer the crackers.

                         

                        I also drink Ensure for breakfast. Not because I think it is better than food but I am usually pressed for time and it is quick and easy. It also stores well in my locker.

                         

                        FWIW a friend of mine just got sponsored by UCAN. He swears  it has helped him loose weight and improve his times, He was First in the 40-44 AG in the Charlerston HM. He is a Level 1 certified Triathlon coach and learned about the product at a training session.  

                        ehunter


                          I can't wrap my simple lil mind around how there can be a placebo effect with cramps.  To me thats like having a placebo for a gunshot wound...you can give me a placebo and make me believe that when you shoot me between the ears it ain't gonna hurt...but boom...it hurts!  What I'm saying is that cramps during training/racing occur from primarily two reasons:  1)  sweat loss (ie salts/minerals), and 2) muscle fatigue.  Of course the combination of the two are more likely.  A placebo will not make you sweat less or make you ease back on stressing your muscles...so how will it help you to not cramp?  Maybe so, but I cannot grasp it.

                            Eric, let me put it in terms that you'd understand....

                            suppose you had two teenage goats stuck in a fence.  Then along comes a farmer on a bike wearing spandex with endurolytes in one bottle and a placebo in another bottle....

                            nevermind, this illustration won't help.

                            pschriver


                                  The gun shot wound vs. cramping wound is a terrible analogy. Cramps are a subjective finding while a gun shot hole is an objective finding, If you want me to explain the physiologic effect of taking Enduralytes by mouth but the downside is it might become less effective for you. If they work you take them. If you calculate the total body composition of electrolytes or even the volume and composition of fluid in your GI tract you will realize that it is not much different than being afraid to pee in lake Hartwell because the  water will rise and flood the dam. There is no chance that the electrolytes you take will be carried to the cramping muscles and relieve the cramping. They dilute out very quickly

                               

                                  There are a lot more reasons for cramping than electrolytes and fatigue. Physiologic studies show no difference in the electrolyte composition between cramping muscles vs. non-cramping muscles. FWIW at Augusta this past year, MUGA set up a lab to test the athletes who came into the medical tent complaining of cramping. None of the athletes had electrolyte abnormalities. When you give IV fluid, studies have shown that there isn't any difference between giving sugar water (D5W), 50/50 sugar/electrolytes(D5+1/2NS+K, or Serum equivalent (LR).

                               

                                  Never underestimate the power of the "Mind" The brain is the second favorite organ for most men. The most effective medicine for cramping is an anxiolytic like (Valium). After amputating a leg patients frequently complain of cramping in their feet and which are not present.

                               

                              Working in Chicago seeing 2-3 GSWs (gun shot wounds) every other day for 6 years gives me enough experience to know it is nothing like leg cramping

                              ehunter


                                What I was implying with my gunshot analogy was that it was caused by an uncontrollable force (not that they are comparable injuries or pains). To me sweat loss and muscle fatigue would be uncontrollable in racing and training if your intent is to perform your best -  otherwise you could slow down or stop to control it.  Even though there are other reasons for cramping besides muscle fatigue and sweat loss (just ask any woman every 28 days), the most popular hypothesis is that these 2 factors are the most agreed upon during exercise.  I recently saw a study where something like 40% of marathon runners experience cramps, 60% of bikers experience them, and 80% of triathletes do so as well - interesting how it increases among those disciplines.  Its also worth pointing out that exercise induced cramping typically (not 100%) occurs during times of heat stress and/or higher intensity levels of activity - with intensity seemingly being the major culprit.  If thats the case, electrolytes would not help. But like you said, nothing definitive has been proven - nor disproven.   It makes sense that, in this case of intensity related cramps, that training could be a preventative if you trained under race like conditions and intensities.

                                 

                                The thing about electrolytes and myself was that I stumbled upon them "ignorantly" when I began triathlons.  I took them as a way to add back in what I had lost - I never considered cramps to be a reason for me taking them - so it couldn't be a placebo effect at that point.  But I began to notice that when I took them I didn't cramp as quickly and when I didn't take them, I cramped earlier and more frequently.

                                 

                                Regarding the MUGA study, Dr. Bergeron hypothesized that the cramps during exercise was a result of excessive sweating and that the fluid that bathes the muscles and nerves is depleted of sodium and potassium lost through that sweat.  He admitted that the study didn't 100% prove that hypo, but that his own personal recommendation is to take in plenty of salt and fluids.

                                 

                                I agree that the mind is an amazing thing - not trying to sell it short.   

                                 

                                I'm thinking I may begin taking Midol as a supplement while racing.  Maybe it'll improve my mood and help with the cramps. 

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