I can do that - Thanks!
There is a great book and DVD called "Total Immersion" that can help with form and technique a lot, plus it gives you some good drills.
Without even seeing you swim, I'll bet you a hundred bucks that you do much of the following: A) Your body from your waist down is too low in the water, B) You separate your legs and bend at the knees when you kick, C) On the pull phase of your stroke, your elbow is too low and it leads your hand back, therefore making the hand to be the only thing pulling you (no help from your forearm), and D) your arm and hand are crossing under your body while pulling.
Pick one of those things and focus on it and see if you're doing that. Work on each flaw one at a time each time you swim. Those corrections alone may get you to a 2:00/100 without doing anything else.
"Peter, congrats, this is the funniest post you have ever made. Your sense of humor is improving, but here is how to become as funny as me:"
Not my funniest post ever. My funniest earned me a "cease and desist" letter from a well known charity and a message from the Moderator threatening suspension. I did get a couple of PMs in support. I thought it was a fairly harmless comment. So much for freedom of speech
There is a great book and DVD called "Total Immersion" that can help with form and technique a lot, plus it gives you some good drills. Without even seeing you swim, I'll bet you a hundred bucks that you do much of the following: A) Your body from your waist down is too low in the water, B) You separate your legs and bend at the knees when you kick, C) On the pull phase of your stroke, your elbow is too low and it leads your hand back, therefore making the hand to be the only thing pulling you (no help from your forearm), and D) your arm and hand are crossing under your body while pulling. Pick one of those things and focus on it and see if you're doing that. Work on each flaw one at a time each time you swim. Those corrections alone may get you to a 2:00/100 without doing anything else.
Are you sure you shouldn't bend at the knees? check out Ian Thorpe in slow motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8egC7PbOME
Absolutely sure. You'll always have a slight bend at the knees but it should never be an exaggerated knee bend. A bent knee kick will actually slow you down. It should look like a pair of scissors with the hip being the mid-point. Thorpe has an exaggerated knee bend in my opinion, but hey, he is an Olympian and I'm just a farmer...what do I know.
edit to add: here is a few excerpts on kick from people much more knowledgeable than me:
What Will Give Me An Effective Kick? There are 4 key technique elements:
1. Kick from the hip
Many swimmers bend their knees too much whilst kicking - we call this kicking from the knee. This creates large amounts of drag and is probably the number one reason for a swimmer's legs to sink low in the water. Instead of kicking from the knee you should kick from the hip with a relatively straight leg. See the animated clips:
Triathletes can have a real problem here. Cycling and running involve developing power from the knee and it's easy to carry this habit across into the water. As soon as you bend your knee you present your thigh as a blunt object to the water and you push the water against the flow.
Kicking from the knee is very naughty.
With good kicking technique, you can bend your knee a little on the down stroke but this shouldn't be a ‘driven' movement, it's just a slight movement from a relaxed knee. As described in the tips below it's best not to think about bending your knee at all, instead think about kicking from the hip with a straight leg – a very slight knee bend will happen naturally.
Read more: http://www.swimsmooth.com/kick.html#ixzz2XR5l8HIY
:Kick from the Hips
The freestyle kick originates from the hips with a slight bend in the knee, allowing your feet to break the water surface. Kicking with your knees causes a large amount of drag by causing your front legs to dip down below your body. This can be counterintuitive to those who run and cycle because they are accustomed to driving from the knee for strength. Focus on kicking from your hips and don't try to consciously move your knees. A small movement in the knees will occur naturally.
Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/459445-freestyle-techniques-for-a-swim-kick/#ixzz2XR2huH2n
http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/2012/03/28/increase-your-swim-speed-kick-it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTX2tpHY-cU
Legs
The kick should start from the hips, not the knees. It sometimes helps to focus only on the downbeat of the kick, not up and down.
When I am training for an Olympic distance or a half iron, all of my swims are a 2000-2500 minimum (build up to that of course), and I build at least one weekly swim up to 3000+ yards and maintain that for several weeks. So, for me, its 3 swims a week included within is a day of 15x100x10sec (with a 200-500 warm up and 100-200 cool down) - about 15-20 seconds above threshold. Might want to begin at 6x100 to build. Second swim is a build up to 4x400x30sec (maybe beginning at 2x400x30 with same warm up/cool down and approximately 10-15 seconds above threshold. This is a great swim here, and my favorite workout. You can see lots of improvement on this one. Third swim is distance broken into 2 sets, say 2x1000x60 with same warm up and cool down - at threshold minimum and slightly more if possible - maybe begin at 2x500 and build this one to 2x1200 or 2x1500. Every few weeks alternate this swim with a straight long distance swim, maybe a 2500 yard straight set.
After giving it some more thought, I would like to double down on my original philosophy: Traci is about to do her 1st Olympic Triathlon. Eric and Peter, you are both veterans and very data-oriented which is fine for experienced triathletes. But i fear that all your math-class advice is going to make her head spin and add unnecessary pressure and confusion to what is supposed to be an enjoyable adventure.
The best thing about triathlons is going out and competing against others (especially in your age group). I think focusing on time, rather than just friendly competition is a negative. Here is why I feel that way... For example, last summer was my first Olympic Triathlon. I did the Chattanooga Waterfront with Eric Hunter. I didn't really know what to expect. I tried my hardest and he did much better than I did. Therefore, my natural reaction is to have respect for him for doing so well. Of course I may wish I did better, but that is mixed with a respect for the athletes that beat me. Had I simply had a "goal time" and didn't reach my goal time, my primary reaction would be disappointment in myself. I think a lot of triathletes fall into that trap of being so focused on time, they miss out on the adventure of the race itself.
Triathlon is just a grown up version of two kids saying "I'll beat you to that mailbox" and they take off running. Time is so over-emphasized, it detracts from the more important aspects of the sport in my opinion. I've done numerous training rides and a few days ago was the most enjoyable one I've ever done. Randy Parks gave me a 1:30 headstart on our ride and my job was to stay ahead of him for as long as I could. He caught me at about mile 7 ish? I didn't know how much time had elapsed and I didn't care. I just knew that my legs were hurting and a beastly cyclist was hot on my tail. The result of that ride was me having respect for Randy, and me getting an awesome workout. Had I been focused on time, I would have not worked as hard (that is a fact) and I the only two reactions i could have would be either 1) satisfaction with myself or 2) disappointment with myself. Either way, it's all about me and that is why focusing on time seems to be less rewarding and less beneficial.
I think the more we incoroporate competition into training, the better we will become. I propose more competitive training sessions. Let's use each other to get better. Triathlon wasn't invented so that 1 person could sit there with a stop watch and do lap after lap after lap. It was a bunch of guys challenging each other to a long race to see who was the fastest athlete.
Traci, I think you should enjoy the race and not get stressed over the data. If you can swim a mile, you will be fine. If you are tired when you get out of the lake, you can recover in T-1. The transition area doesn't have to be a rush, especially in your first race of this type. Just take your time and enjoy the feeling of completing something you've never completed. who cares how long it takes. I also think confidence is key in racing. Swimming is very mental. People who struggle in the swim--it's not because they can't swim. it's because they doubt themselves. don't go into the race thinking that you have to be able to swim 3000 meters in order to survive. You just have to swim 1 mile. with a wetsuit. piece of cake.
For the largest majority of all triathletes, and maybe even 100% of newbies, the swim is the single most stressful event in a triathlon. To a lot of these people, the amount of fun they get out of a tri, and the likelihood that they will or won't do another, is largely dependent on the success of the swim. An open water swim is extremely stressful to someone who has never done one before in a triathlon. The condition of how you come out of the water is huge...huge! This makes the mechanics of swimming, and the fitness level, doubly important. it isn't about time, its about getting through the swim comfortably and as stress free as you can make it. That will set the tone for the bike and run.
I'm not saying you can't enjoy the race if you are a poor swimmer, poorly trained, or less fit...but I have been on both sides of the aisle, and I like coming out of the water with my breath intact, my heart still in my chest, and my breakfast still in my stomach a lot better. That is a whole lot more fun. Coming out of the water barely able to walk, looking for the closest defibrillator, huffing for breath, dizzy, and needing to put on a pair of clean tri shorts...fun, not-so-much. And many people that endure that won't return to an open water swim tri. You said that swimming is very mental, and that's true...which is exactly why I preach form and fitness. Without those two, its very hard to go into a lake with confidence and assurance. Matter of fact, part of the theory involving open water swim deaths includes the stress and fear that accompanies the athlete getting into the water.
And yes, to Traci, if she can swim a mile, then she will be fine. If she only swims half a mile, she will be fine. I would even say that she could complete the swim without any swim training whatsoever...but wouldn't you want to come out of the water without having a near heart attack, feeling good, having confidence, and prepared to hit the bike? I do agree that she doesn't need to worry about threshold pace and all that goes with that, but I do encourage learning proper technique if she doesn't already have it and being as swim-fit as possible.
One other thing I would say is that a mile in the pool is vastly different than a mile in the lake. That's one other reason that over-training the distance for a swim is important. You can't even compare the two. And her race...its without a wetsuit. August in Hartwell. Bathwater temperature.
To your other points. To me, the best part of triathlon actually isn't going out and competing against others. Heck, I'm not fast enough to call it competing any way - my fastest days are behind me, and that's ok. My fun comes from the competition I place against myself and the training that got me to that point. I'm not naïve enough to think I can compete day in and day out with most folks in my age group - I figured that out the first year - I'm an average biker and swimmer (if that) on my best day, and probably a below average runner every time I put my shoes on (if not always, definitely now). I made a decision before the last race of my first year to only have one goal, and that is to have fun, and not to worry about race times, and regardless of what my race time was, not to allow that to dictate me being pleased with a race or performance. I've pretty much stuck to that goal. I have friends who will pout and complain after they finish a race and didn't meet their goal. Who cares? Not a single person in the race, maybe the world, cares how fast I do a race in. I have a lot of friends who race, and I can't tell you a single one of their race times, PRs, or anything else about them - and I'm sure they can't tell you mine. As a triathlete, most of our ego's are way bigger than our capabilities. So yeah, just have fun and don't worry about anything else.
The older I get, I find that my main goal is to stay healthy and just be fit. I think that's why I love the longer distances so much - it pushes fitness and endurance over speed. It makes me put in a lot of time training...and the training is fun and enjoyable.Who cares if someone finishes in front of me or if I beat a friend or foe. My days of competing hard against others ended when I threw my last pitch over 25 years ago. I still get that competitive bone every now and then - we all have people that we "must" beat...but its all in good fun.
"To your other points. To me, the best part of triathlon actually isn't going out and competing against others. Heck, I'm not fast enough to call it competing any way - my fastest days are behind me, and that's ok. My fun comes from the competition I place against myself and the training that got me to that point. I'm not naïve enough to think I can compete day in and day out with most folks in my age group - I figured that out the first year - I'm an average biker and swimmer (if that) on my best day, and probably a below average runner every time I put my shoes on "
I don't have time to respond to your whole post right now but I will say that the above comment is not true.
1) If the above comment was true, you wouldn't sign up for races. If you don't care about competing against others, and all your fun comes from competing against yourself and the training...then you could accomplish all that without signing up for a single race. The truth is that it is the competition that brings out your best. Triathlon is a race! Obviously, winning doesn't have to be the most important aspect, but don't pretend it doesn't matter. competition is a healthy thing. competition is what makes you rise to the occasion and better yourself.
2) don't pretend you're not a very successful and impressive athlete. You can play Eeyore all day and act like you aren't all that, but we all know better. You are one of the best endurance athletes in the upstate. You make Ironman look easy and you beat guys (like me) who are much younger and better looking than you at races of all distances. I almost had a heart attack pedaling my bike as fast as I could in Chattanooga and you beat me by like 9 minutes on just the bike. Oh and you beat me on the swim and the run too. So stop acting like you don't have anything to offer anybody else. "To him who much is given, much is expected" You and Randy got me started as an endurance athlete so I have a lot of gratitude and respect for you.
3) does that earn me some free strawberries next year?
4) I thought Traci was doing REV 3 olympic (wetsuit). So yes, Traci, the swim will be tougher without the wetsuit for sure. it makes a big difference. Question: why not just do REV 3 for your first olympic?
Wow did this thread get derailed. It went from, maybe we should think twice about triathlons, to what it will take for Traci to swim an Olympic, and how we should enjoy triathlons.. From what little I know of Traci, I think she has a competitive drive, a never give up attitude and a very good aerobic base. The swim is clearly her weak point and anything that will shorten her learning curve to get better would probably be appreciated. Learning your T-pace and having something to work from is a good start.
When I started doing triathlons, I couldn't run a mile and a 10 mile bike ride was a long ride. There wasn't a remote chance i would ever place. My goal was simply to not be last. I honestly didn't care much about time and can say i enjoyed triathlons as much then as I do now. The only difference is now I really expect a podium spot at every race. It's not easier, I'm just faster.
Oh my, this stuff is so great.
Wow did this thread get derailed. It went from, maybe we should think twice about triathlons, to what it will take for Traci to swim an Olympic, and how we should enjoy triathlons -
yes, this is my favorite thread ever. I'm going to keep a copy of it and put it in my fitness folder.
2) don't pretend you're not a very successful and impressive athlete. You can play Eeyore all day and act like you aren't all that, but we all know better. -
I agree, we have to listen to how average he is and you're right, we all know better. But Josh really, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? You do the same thing.
4) I thought Traci was doing REV 3 olympic (wetsuit). So yes, Traci, the swim will be tougher without the wetsuit for sure. it makes a big difference. Question: why not just do REV 3 for your first olympic? -
I want to do Rev 3 for my second Olympic.
When Greenville Duathlon was cancelled, I transferred my registration to Toccoa and for the Olympic distance cause I am a bargain hunter and I got an Olympic distance tri for $30. What a deal. You guys made it look easy. I didn't know what I was getting myself into. I may have a competitive drive, a never give up attitude and a very good aerobic base, but the best thing I have going for me are friends like you all. You guys are the reason I finished the swim in Clemson, the reason I made it to the top of Caesar's Head, and you'll be the reason I successfully swim 1500m in Toccoa without a wetsuit.
Thanks for all the great advice. I am taking it all in and will work on it a little at a time. I'm going to sleep now. I feel a little swimmy headed.
- itri -
"To your other points. To me, the best part of triathlon actually isn't going out and competing against others. Heck, I'm not fast enough to call it competing any way - my fastest days are behind me, and that's ok. My fun comes from the competition I place against myself and the training that got me to that point. I'm not naïve enough to think I can compete day in and day out with most folks in my age group - I figured that out the first year - I'm an average biker and swimmer (if that) on my best day, and probably a below average runner every time I put my shoes on " I don't have time to respond to your whole post right now but I will say that the above comment is not true. 1) If the above comment was true, you wouldn't sign up for races. If you don't care about competing against others, and all your fun comes from competing against yourself and the training...then you could accomplish all that without signing up for a single race. The truth is that it is the competition that brings out your best. Triathlon is a race! Obviously, winning doesn't have to be the most important aspect, but don't pretend it doesn't matter. competition is a healthy thing. competition is what makes you rise to the occasion and better yourself. 2) don't pretend you're not a very successful and impressive athlete. You can play Eeyore all day and act like you aren't all that, but we all know better. You are one of the best endurance athletes in the upstate. You make Ironman look easy and you beat guys (like me) who are much younger and better looking than you at races of all distances. I almost had a heart attack pedaling my bike as fast as I could in Chattanooga and you beat me by like 9 minutes on just the bike. Oh and you beat me on the swim and the run too. So stop acting like you don't have anything to offer anybody else. "To him who much is given, much is expected" You and Randy got me started as an endurance athlete so I have a lot of gratitude and respect for you. 3) does that earn me some free strawberries next year? 4) I thought Traci was doing REV 3 olympic (wetsuit). So yes, Traci, the swim will be tougher without the wetsuit for sure. it makes a big difference. Question: why not just do REV 3 for your first olympic?
I'm telling you, the competition with other athletes is not what motivates me, drives me, or makes me sign up for a race. Take the Ironman distance. I absolutely go into a race like that not even thinking about my race in relation with anyone else. Its all about pushing against myself...period. After the race is over, I enjoy looking at the stats and the numbers and finish ratio/percentages, and stuff like that. But does it have any bearing on why I enter or does it drive me? Not in the least. I'll also say this: the reason I sign up for any local races (or races that friends are doing) has zero to do with competing against them. Am I competitive? Of course. If you or Randy or Eric or anyone else beats me, sure I'd think about it and it may get under my crawl a little, but my post-race attitude has nothing to do with beating you or anyone else, nor getting beat by you or anyone else. Its about how well I did in my mind in relation to the pre-conceived goal I had going into the race. Do I want to do well against you and others? Of course. But to say it is a determining factor in why I race...far from it. At this level, winning does not matter one iota to me. It doesn't. Winning is very relative in triathlon anyway. You can finish 187th overall but still "win" your age group. Is that really winning? No, it isn't. It means you beat some other old folks who were in worse condition than yourself. In my baseball days, winning was everything and I fought like heck to be the best pitcher ever created by God. I left that behind when my baseball career ended. I don't want to be that competitive again...it takes way too much joy out of everything. I can tell you this...regardless of what happens in a race, you won't find me complaining afterwards about my performance. I truly enjoy the racing and the event and the atmosphere of the whole race scene. The competing takes a back seat to everything else.
Per #2...thank you for the compliments. If I do have any success, its because I think I have a pretty good handle on training, formulating a training plan, understanding training, and coaching myself. I think I am good at training (gotta think about that one for it to make sense). I think I would be a good coach. I think I beat a lot of athletes who are much better than I am because I think I know how to execute a race (triathlon) fairly well. A good example of that was my last race in Louisville - I surely wasn't a better athlete than all the people behind me...but on that day, I was. I executed better than they did, simple as that. I still maintain that I am at best an average triathlete (if even that), but what I just explained makes up for some of the skills I lack.
Its all about perspective. We're all decent athletes and have our strengths and weaknesses. Its fun to place in our local races and beat our friends. Its fun to get the awards and trophies and have people clap for us (even if they aren't paying attention to us or what we did - check what you're thinking about the next time awards are being given out...I bet it isn't about the people getting the awards - and afterwards, you won't be able to name more than two of the people who got awards). But I digress - anyway, if we win or place overall in a local race, then we become medium sized fish in a very small pond. When you break that down into categories such as age groups, then we become medium sized fish in an even smaller pond. Like I said earlier, as triathletes our ego's far outweigh our capabilities. Perspective.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
blah blah blah!
You are competitive and you know it.
You wouldn't sign up for races if you didn't like competing against other people.
It's impossible to gauge your abilities without a frame of reference.
You wouldn't know if a 12hr Ironman was a good time unless you could see that 80% of the people in your age group were not able to do it.
other people provide that frame of reference.
You couldn't establish a "goal time" if it wasn't for looking at how other people do. For example you would never pick a goal time of a 12 hr Ironman if everyone else who ever did an ironman did it in 11 hours.
With that being said, you don't have to make it your goal to beat people. Your goal can be to improve as an individual. But, unless you compete against other people, you would never know what your best it. Competing against others is what brings out your best! It's not a bad thing.
You guys need to start your own thread to discuss competing to be the most humble. I will start one about what it takes to jump from sprint to Olympic distance
Ok. Let's bring it back around to the original topic - a Middle Aged Man in Lycra.
Josh used a couple of pictures of a MAMIL in the ad he placed in Pace Magazine for the Tri the Ridge Triathlon.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ blah blah blah! You are competitive and you know it. You wouldn't sign up for races if you didn't like competing against other people. It's impossible to gauge your abilities without a frame of reference. You wouldn't know if a 12hr Ironman was a good time unless you could see that 80% of the people in your age group were not able to do it. other people provide that frame of reference. You couldn't establish a "goal time" if it wasn't for looking at how other people do. For example you would never pick a goal time of a 12 hr Ironman if everyone else who ever did an ironman did it in 11 hours. With that being said, you don't have to make it your goal to beat people. Your goal can be to improve as an individual. But, unless you compete against other people, you would never know what your best it. Competing against others is what brings out your best! It's not a bad thing.
So let me get this straight. You develop your goals depending upon who is in a particular race? That isn't goal setting, that's convoluted dreaming.
Here is how I set my goals. During my training and looking at my history, I can pretty much tell you what I will be able to do a particular race in. I know that if I have a perfect day, then my time should be XXX:XX. I know that if I have a good day, then my time should be XXX:XX. I am educated on the course layout, the weather, the overall conditions, etc. Therefore, I set my goals based on these times and my knowledge. I don't set a goal based on anything else, especially based on someone else. it isn't based on what people have done a particular race in in the past. It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else at all. Lets say you and I are going to run a 5K race together. You typically run a 19 minute or faster 5K. My best ever, 5 years ago, was 20:30. I know through my training that even to match that goal (20:30) right now would be a stretch. Why in the world would my goal be to beat you when I know realistically I can't? I would have to hope that miraculously I woke up a lot faster runner than when I went to bed. I would have to hope that something happens that causes you to have a poor race. it would be foolish to think that I could show up and pull out a sub 19 minute 5K and beat you. That would be a foolish and unreachable goal. So, I may set my goal as 20:30...or whatever...based on my training and knowing my capabilities - but it certainly would not be to beat someone that I stand no chance of doing so. That isn't a goal...that would be a wish.
"You wouldn't know if a 12hr Ironman was a good time unless you could see that 80% of the people in your age group were not able to do it. You couldn't establish a "goal time" if it wasn't for looking at how other people do. For example you would never pick a goal time of a 12 hour Ironman if everyone else who ever did an ironman did it in 11 hours".
Wrong, I know that a 12 hour Ironman is a good time for me because that is within reason for my ability (determined through training), and that it is a time that I know I am capable of. Again, I reach that goal based on my training level and my past performance. I don't care if its good for anyone else...its good for me. The people who typically win my AG in, say IM Louisville, is sub-10 hours. If winning is my goal and I set my goal based on these folks performances, then what the heck am I doing? Its not a goal...its a pipe dream. A wish for a miracle. Its unrealistic and unachievable. I'm setting myself up for failure and disappointment.
"You are competitive and you know it."
I absolutely am. But its directed in a sensible and realistic direction. When we compete in races, the only thing we can control is what we do - that's why the competition is primarily against myself. All I can do is compete against myself and try to have my very best race, and let everyone else's race times fall where they may. We can't control other competitors, conditions, etc. So why would I set my goal against something that is totally out of my control? If I can go out and have a great race, set a PR, and end up with the best race I have ever had...but end up being angry because I lost to runner X who I never had a prayer of beating anyway - then why should I even bother to compete?
"You wouldn't sign up for races if you didn't like competing against other people."
Simply not true. The race is the culmination of my training and gives me the opportunity to test myself and see what I can do. Its the yardstick. Its the icing on the cake of training. The competing is fun and makes the race more enjoyable, and its fun to see where we stack up against others...but I don't sign up with the primary initiative of competing against someone else or with the goal of standing on a podium.
"With that being said, you don't have to make it your goal to beat people. Your goal can be to improve as an individual. But, unless you compete against other people, you would never know what your best it. Competing against others is what brings out your best! It's not a bad thing."
Some true, some false. I disagree that you don't know what your best is unless you compete against others. Competing against others does indeed help to bring out our best....along with the whole race atmosphere, the attitude of racing. Its our nature to try and perform our best when in a group setting like that...we want to be at our best that day. But I wouldn't say that's its the competing against others that is doing this...its just the competing of the race itself. The race brings out adrenaline and makes us go a little harder and try a little more. its not a bad thing at all.
I am realistic. I set realistic goals...challenging goals, yes...but realistic.