Running-Wizard

123

Longest long run (Read 87 times)

frank777


Phew!

    I signed up yesterday for the marathon plan - the target race is the Gold Coast (Australia) Marathon on 7/7/13. I'm 55 and ran my one and only marathon back in 2000 on the Sydney Olympic course, but I've done a few halves since then. My daughter is training for her first marathon (Gold Coast) and that's given me the impetus to try for my second marathon.

     

    My plan is 18 weeks long, and the longest of the long aerobic runs is only 16.5 km, nine weeks before the race. This seems way too little, especially when conventional wisdom suggests a couple of long training runs of 32 km or so.

     

    What do other marathon-plan runners have as their longest run (I realise that they'll be somewhat different between runners of different abilities and starting points) , and does my relatively short long run seem too short to you?


    Bacon Party!

      My longest long run is 17.5 miles.

      Are you sure your plan is being shown in kilometers?

       

      MTA: grammar!

      Liz

      pace sera, sera


      Hungry

        My longest long run is 17.5 miles.

        Are you sure you're plan is being shown in kilometers?

        Same comment, same distance for me. My longest is 17.5 Miles, and it's a full 15 weeks before the marathon (gulp, it's this Saturday). Also, the range of mileage for that day is 13.5 - 20.5 miles, so at the long end of that range, it would be pretty close to the 32km suggested by Frank. I would agree that 16.5 km (~10.2 miles?) is probably too short for that to be the longest run in a marathon plan. I hope this helps.

          I think the important thing is the time. My longest scheduled run is 11.5 miles, 2h30min. I got the plan for a 50k in May, so I used a 10 mile trail race over a mountain in the setup = slow paces and low mile long runs in the plan.

           

          I just did a hilly (7000ft gain) trail 50k, basically at the end of the aerobic phase, and finished 30 minutes faster than expected (finished in 7:34). I did add mileage to the long runs, but not much. Most were 12-15 miles, one was 17, one 19, but as these were on gnarly technical steep trails some walking was included (times were from 3-5 hours, mostly around 3). I also ran more miles per week (easy) and days than the plan (didn't realize I'd be comfortable running 7 days a week when I got it). My long run mileage was generally around 30% of my weekly. I never felt the need for a rest day after the long runs, and they always ended with me wanting to run more -- but restraining myself so I would be sure to get in good runs during the week.

           

          I believe the shorter long runs work well for me right now and intend to keep them mostly around 3 hours, letting the mileage increase naturally as I get faster.

           

          If 3 hour long runs work for a 7.5 hour race, I don't have any problem believing 2.5 hour long runs (regardless of distance covered) should be enough for a marathon as long as you're getting in enough weekly mileage.

           

          YMMV but this is working for me, someone who ran <800 miles last year, but will probably break 2400 this year. It might also be relevant that I was already in decent shape when I started running from Crossfit and biking.

          Mt Cheaha 50k 2/23/2013:  7:34 :D

          Lake Martin 50; 27 miles: 5:29:07

          Run For Kids 50k, Birmingham, 5/4/2013: 6:26:33 Woot!

          frank777


          Phew!

            Thanks for your replies. The distances are definitely shown as kilometres:

             

             

            Lynde's point about the duration is a valid one, but as you can see this run is only supposed to be around 2 hours long. The estimated marathon time is 4:22, so my longest training run is 39% of the distance or 46% of the estimated finish time. I've trained longer distances and times for half marathon training, so it just doesn't seem right. I'll have to contact the program's owners to see if they can explain it.

              Hey Frank! Yeah, I would just drop a note to Nobby, one of the creators of Running Wizard (you can probably PM him via the Forum, his username is Nobby415) and ask what the deal is. Nobby has posted quite a bit here about how the super-long run is overrated in marathon training, and it's the total training load that matters more than the 20-milers. You might also be able to find some of those posts using the search function.

               

               

               

              Thanks for your replies. The distances are definitely shown as kilometres:

               

               

              Lynde's point about the duration is a valid one, but as you can see this run is only supposed to be around 2 hours long. The estimated marathon time is 4:22, so my longest training run is 39% of the distance or 46% of the estimated finish time. I've trained longer distances and times for half marathon training, so it just doesn't seem right. I'll have to contact the program's owners to see if they can explain it.

              frank777


              Phew!

                Hey Frank! Yeah, I would just drop a note to Nobby, one of the creators of Running Wizard (you can probably PM him via the Forum, his username is Nobby415) and ask what the deal is. Nobby has posted quite a bit here about how the super-long run is overrated in marathon training, and it's the total training load that matters more than the 20-milers. You might also be able to find some of those posts using the search function.

                 

                 

                 

                 

                Thanks rhr -  I've sent them a message via the training website. I know Nobby is quite responsive to questions - before I bought a 10k plan last year (just to test drive the Wizard software) I asked some questions and got a very comprehensive response from him Smile


                Bacon Party!

                  Whoa! Duration is only 2:00 hours ... that DOES seem off. I'd expect to see 2:30, at least.

                  Will be interested to see Nobby's response.

                  Liz

                  pace sera, sera

                    IIRC, I think they use the length of your long run going into the program to set the volume and duration of the long run, but they cap the long run at 2.5hrs, give or take about 15min, iirc. My program had 2.5hr long runs for a 10k program. I'm slow, but not that slow. Wink  (I was doing longer long runs though since I was ultimately training for a 50-mi race.)

                    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

                      Frank - just curious if you heard from nobby, and if so what did he say?

                      frank777


                      Phew!

                        No, he hasn't replied to either this thread or a query I sent via the Running Wizard application. In the meantime, I'm just running more km in the weekly long run than the plan says to; within reason, I don't think that will hurt.


                        MM #6177

                          Just curious, how many days per week is your program, Frank? I've heard that when you set up the program for only 4 days per week, weird things like this could happen. My coach who has worked with Lorraine Moller mentioned it to me, when I told her my husband might be interested in doing RW for his marathon this fall.

                            Hi. I'm a Lydiard certified coach and have had some experience with RW and some of the quirks of the program - quirks that are inevitable with every cookie-cutter program - I have seen that those who ask for plans with 4 days of running (and I'm not sure that this is your plan Frank, but it seems likely given the situation) run into a difficulty with the length of long runs because the long run will always be a certain percentage of your weekly mileage. If your weekly mileage is under 40 miles, then the long run will be figured on the short side. A Lydiard program emphasizes a broad aerobic base of weekly miles, spread throughout the week, NOT just on the weekends. This is very different from most training plans.

                            Additionally, there are time factors for long runs. The research shows that runs much over 2:30 hrs (3 on the outside) cause more harm than good. So that limitation is also figured in. I don't know the specifics of this plan, but it seems that one of these issues may be responsible for the shorter long run seen here.

                            I have been testing out RW on myself, and have been reporting back to Nobby and Lorraine about problems like this. Unfortunately it's very difficult to do a true Lydiard based program on very low weekly miles.

                            frank777


                            Phew!

                              OrangeMat and ChronicRunner (what strange names Wink) thanks for your comments. Yes, my program is 4 days/week. The biggest weeks are weeks 10 and 11 (out of 19) at 45 km (27 miles) each, with long runs of 16.5 km (10 miles) and 15 km (9 miles).

                               

                              I still haven't received a reply to my query about this, which I'm not too happy about. I'm running the upper suggested distances for each run, and steadily increasing the "over distance" on the weekly long run which I seem to be handling easily so far. I might have to add another aerobic run mid-week to increase the total weekly distance.

                               

                              My aim is to finish the marathon in less than 5 hrs (my one and only previous marathon time), and even to try to get near the RW target of 4:22. However, I might end up doing a run-walk with my daughter, who will be doing her first marathon. Either way, I'm somewhat confident that I'll do the distance on race day in relative (cough) comfort.

                                Frank - I've been trained by both Lorraine and Nobby - so if you want you may consider this a response, though I am not involved with the RW development. There's a couple things to keep in mind and perhaps tweak. First, remember that  Lydiard  program emphasizes mileage early on then backs off mileage a bit to focus on Sharpening. Aerobic capacity we can bank, in a sense, but speed need focused development. Speed gains last, at the most, 6 weeks. So for aerobic stuff you are relying on what you did months ago, as well as now. IF you want to up the mileage a bit, I'd add a bit every day. The "one long run" popular with many plans just is not the emphasis here. Another important tweak I would recommend is: two back to back longer runs. So, if you run say 15 miles on Sunday run a hard 8 or so on Sat (like a PCR). Again this depends a lot on how many TOTAL miles you've been running and how many weeks out you are right now.

                                Sorry that you've had problems on this - note that the plans have a range of distances and time for each run. I'd aim for the higher of the range - and never add too much too quickly. I think that the RW plan needs to be adjusted for these issues.

                                123